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Could I have got more?

peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
edited December 2013 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Smilodon Small blind   50.00 50.00 4325.00
Daijip Big blind   100.00 150.00 3905.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
madmick078 Fold        
Phlerp_74 Fold        
peter27 Raise   300.00 450.00 5950.00
5c0u53 Call   300.00 750.00 2840.00
Smilodon Fold        
Daijip Call   200.00 950.00 3705.00
Flop
   
  • Q
  • A
  • 9
     
Daijip Check        
peter27 Bet   475.00 1425.00 5475.00
5c0u53 Call   475.00 1900.00 2365.00
Daijip Fold        
Turn
   
  • J
     
peter27 Check        
5c0u53 Check        
River
   
  • 7
     
peter27 Check        
5c0u53 Check        
peter27 Show
  • K
  • K
     
5c0u53 Muck
  • 10
  • J
     
peter27 Win Pair of Kings 1900.00   7375.00
Middle stages of a bounty hunter, no reads. Could I have got more value? I guess I got scared on the turn with potential flushes and straights out there!
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Comments

  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited November 2013
    As played.  One thing though, If villian bets river ~1400, are you calling?
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited November 2013
    If we bet either turn or river, we can't realistically expect to be called by worse hands.

    The flop bet is one of those questionable things. As long as we're not hoping to just take the pot down, it's fine. If we're betting hoping not to be called, then we're bluffing with a pair of Kings.

    We should be able to be called by quite a few weaker hands - Qx, draws - though, so betting the flop is probably good for value. Can't stand any aggression, though.


    To answer DoubleAAA's question; I wouldn't be calling any decent sized river bet. We can't beat any value bets so would just be bluff-catching against missed draws... and there really aren't any. The only hands we'd beat would be weaker one-pair hands that he's turning into a bluff. That's unlikely.
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  • peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more?:
    As played.  One thing though, If villian bets river ~1400, are you calling?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    Would have folded TBH. Why?

    In Response to Re: Could I have got more?:
    As long as we're not hoping to just take the pot down, it's fine. If we're betting hoping not to be called, then we're bluffing with a pair of Kings.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    What would be wrong with hoping to take the pot down at that stage? At the time, it was simply a continuation bet which we could then use to re-evaluate, if called. I guess it was a semi-bluff/semi-value bet as we're losing to any ace but other than that we're in good shape (most of the time). He was in position so it is plausible that he didn't have an ace as he would be playing a wider range of hands. When he called my flop bet though, I thought he had it - that's why I slowed down on the turn.
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more?:
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more? : Would have folded TBH. Why?
    Posted by peter27
    Reason being, once you've checked both turn and river, some players will see this as weakness and be tempted to bet to take the pot.  Just wondered if you feel as though you have the best hand when he chks turn then bets river.
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited December 2013
    This hand is kind of similar and as said I didnt want to turn my hand into a bluff on the flop. The turn and river also didnt make life easy for me but:

    should I have called the river even though I am only really beating air?

    Should I have turned my hand into a bluff?

    Is 18bb too big to shove preflop?

    Also starting the hand with 18bb's doesnt leave much room for manoeuvre. No real reads on villain (only just moved tables about 5 hands). It's from the £11 2k BH
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    beaky Small blind  75.00 75.00 3335.00
    JIMMYBOY27 Big blind  150.00 225.00 1995.00
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • J
    		     
    jonjon78 Fold     
    baracas120 Fold     
    liamboi11 Fold     
    jdsallstar Raise  400.00 625.00 2300.00
    beaky Fold     
    JIMMYBOY27 Call  250.00 875.00 1745.00
    Flop
       
    • 9
    • A
    • 3
    		     
    JIMMYBOY27 Check     
    jdsallstar Check     
    Turn
       
    • K
    		     
    JIMMYBOY27 Check     
    jdsallstar Check     
    River
       
    • 6
    		     
    JIMMYBOY27 Bet  875.00 1750.00 870.00
    jdsallstar Fold     
    JIMMYBOY27 Muck     
    JIMMYBOY27 Win  875.00  1745.00
    JIMMYBOY27 Return  875.00 0.00 2620.00
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited December 2013
    @JD, As it's a BH, I would open shove this hand unless blinds are aggro, then m/r to induce a shove.  If it were a normal mtt I would be using your standard raise size.  I think you should be betting the flop here, just over half pot.
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more?:
    @JD, As it's a BH, I would open shove this hand unless blinds are aggro, then m/r to induce a shove.  If it were a normal mtt I would be using your standard raise size.  I think you should be betting the flop here, just over half pot.
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    sorry double made a typo in my post I have about 18bb's pre - surely open shoving 18 bigs isnt a good idea?

    If I bet flop am i not turning my hand into a bluff (isnt that a bad thing when I have a hand with good showdown value) and am I not only getting called with hands that beat me?

    Finally if blinds are aggro is that not more reason to open shove because their range will be wider?
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  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited December 2013
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more?:
    In Response to Re: Could I have got more? : sorry double made a typo in my post I have about 18bb's pre - surely open shoving 18 bigs isnt a good idea? If I bet flop am i not turning my hand into a bluff (isnt that a bad thing when I have a hand with good showdown value) and am I not only getting called with hands that beat me? Finally if blinds are aggro is that not more reason to open shove because their range will be wider?
    Posted by jdsallstar
    Yes I wouldn't be open shoving 18bbs.  On that A9x flus draw flop, if you were holding TT and the pre flop raiser cbet, would you fold?  Just because someone bets and there is an A on the board, does not mean they have it.  If so, then it would be so easy to play against someone who folds often to cbets.

    Regarding the thing about blinds being aggro, if you shove, they can no longer be aggro as the only action presented to them is to either call or fold, seeing as it is infact a BH, they may well call you with a weak holding so a shove wouldn't be that bad tbh but not for 18bbs :)

    If it were a mtt (BH is fine also) then you can m/r you'll give them the option to shove on you, thinking they can make you fold.  It really depends on your reads on the people in the blinds upon how to play your hand optimally.
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited December 2013
    Cheers for the reply. in my days gone by I would have bet this flop every time-it's this bet for value or as a bluff thinking that gets me confused.

    If I bet this flop I'm getting no value from Ax but I am getting value from flush draws, 9x, 3x and any smaller pp's! So I'm still not sure if betting this flop is for value or as a bluff-seems to be a combo of both?!

    As for raise pre-this is my standard for this level of blinds with no reads.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited December 2013
    Peter - BorinLoner's point was that if you're cbetting literally just hoping they fold then you're turning a still relatively strong hand into a bluff. If you believe that getting a call on the flop means you will definitely be drawing to 2 outs then don't cbet.

    To cbet here we have to think they will call with FDs, Qx hands, some straights draws maybe like JT, KJ (we know they're calling with Ax). If you don't think this is true then you're betting in a situation where if you get called, you're beat, if you get folds, so what all you did was make someone fold a hand you were beating anyway.

    FWIW, it's a stone wall spot to cbet against most people imo, but the important thing is you shouldn't be thinking 'if I get called, I'm definitely beat). The turn is a pretty horrific card tho lol
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