I guess I should just make the fold, I would have been better off to raise a hand with 2 cards between J and 7 because if I know he is mostly going to be jamming with Ax or pairs I will normally only have 1 card that will allow me to go ahead when calling with A2-A5 but, with hands containing 2 cards between J-7 although i expect to be behind but unlike them low aces here i could win with either card the only danger is big pairs. Posted by craigcu12
Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold? To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad. You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack.
How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ? If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well.
In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax : Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold? To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad. You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack. How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ? If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well. Posted by DoubleAAA
Craig isn't this guy in this situation though. If I was the other guy I might fold A2 as well as the smallest of pairs 22-33, maybe 44 but wouldn't fold KQ and KJ. This is because we have almost no fold equity. So against me, you or most players it would be a mistake to fold the A2s. But if we have a concrete read our opponent only has good Ax and mid-high pairs here then folding A2s is only a small mistake +ev wise which means we can still fold it if we believe we can find plenty of higher ev spots.
In Response to Re: calling a jam with Ax : Craig, if you were this guy in this situation and you had A2 would you shove or fold? how about KQ, Shove? Fold? To fold your A2s here in this situation with your stack size is bad. You only need 30% equity and you have 38%, if you lose, it's not detrimental to your stack. How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ? If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well. Posted by DoubleAAA
people such as yourself and HH I would never be folding A2s because I do't expect you to be acting like a tight nit.
but if a shorty is not bothering to jam having did a min raise or when holding 2 pair on a very wet board is not willing to jam the turn or river it's quite obvious they are definitely playing like a nit. so why loose another 3BB knowing that I will only have 1 card that is any use
If you're willing to m/r utg and fold for such a small amount when only needing 30% to call, then perhaps it would be better to tighten your range with the short stack still to act after you. VS a range of AT+,77+ you're still 31%. It's still +ev to call and how can you be so sure villian is not shoving KQ,KJ,QJs?
Also to note, Ad2d vs AKo is 30.1%. I just cannot fathom how you can ever find a way of folding this.
If you're willing to m/r utg and fold for such a small amount when only needing 30% to call, then perhaps it would be better to tighten your range with the short stack still to act after you. VS a range of AT+,77+ you're still 31%. It's still +ev to call and how can you be so sure villian is not shoving KQ,KJ,QJs? Also to note, Ad2d vs AKo is 30.1%. I just cannot fathom how you can ever find a way of folding this. Posted by DoubleAAA
well I can't see why you would just fold your hand when you have the chance to steal his blinds.
surely the rest of the table would see that the reason for me folding is he has been so tight.
think of it like this AKo vs A2s or Ako vs J10s which would you want because I certainly know what my choice is
A2 was basically unlucky to have come at a time when he had something but I was never to know that all I knew was he didn't seem keen on doing the jam so their was free chips for me.
had I been able to see his 2 cards I would not have did that min raise.
Just remembered I asked a quite well known youtube (MTT specialist) player this question a while back and just checked back now to see I got an answer. He said that somewhere between 8 and 12bbs is where he would start just open shoving as opposed to min-r (which co-incidentally is exactly what I have said in a past thread!) "14bbs or under and we should be playing decisive poker" - I take it this means you only ever shove or fold with this stack size? It's kind of ironic because you say it's a bad idea to be blind down to 8bb's but yet with this strategy of shove/fold at 14bbs you are either going to: a) end up in this situation a lot b) Be forced to make unprofitable shoves a) is because for us to profitably shove a 14bb stack size we need to have a really tight range. This is because we are risking 14bb to only win 1.5bb. (sometimes just 1bb if you are SB/BB) Not the greatest of risk/reward ratios. Thus we need to have much higher equity on avg against a calling range. b) is because if we are shoving a tight range we might be card dead for a while hence we need to start shoving hands that have too poor equity when called to make the risk/reward of winning 1.5bb worthwhile. I guess we'll never agree though on this :P I'd just like to hear a good argument from you about why it is bad! Posted by F_Ivanovic
Ivan, do you really need me to explain to you, a very experienced poker player, the importance of retaining fold equity in a tournament?! Seriously man, come on.
Perhaps it's me in the minority on this subject, who knows, but I'd be very surprised to see some of this sites biggest MTT winners, people like MattBates, TommyD, Yoyo, Stayorgo, Chicknmelt, come on here and say they are content to blind away to 8bb before getting shovy. Maybe one of them will prove me wrong....
I don't think anyone is content to blind away to 8bb :P If it happens, it happens - but we still retain fold equity with this stack size in non-BH tournaments. BB needs 42% equity to call, SB around 44% and anyone else needs 45%. Meaning they can't just call with any 2...
Also you seem to think I am always advocating going down to 8bbs before getting shovy! It's completely opponent dependant. Say we are on the BTN and have 12bb's in an unopened pot. Both blinds are tight and will both fold at least 2/3 of the time to a min-r but shove the rest. Thus we are opening 100% of BTN's. The ev of this play is at least 0.33bb (if we assume we just r/f every time we get shoved on)
Lets also assume they shove with the same/similar range that they would call a shove. If; instead of min-r we just open shove every time our play suddenly becomes massively -ev when opening 100% of BTN's. We will win 3bb 2/3 of the time but 1/3 of the time we might be all in with on average 31% equity. That means we are losing 4.4bbs. Thus we are losing 1.4bbs in total.
From this it seems clear that min-r the BTN is better than shoving in this particular situation. Maths backs up that point.
Comments
How can you be so sure that he will be folding out A2-A5,KQ,KJ? If he is then he's also folding out 22-33 as well.
but if a shorty is not bothering to jam having did a min raise or when holding 2 pair on a very wet board is not willing to jam the turn or river it's quite obvious they are definitely playing like a nit. so why loose another 3BB knowing that I will only have 1 card that is any use
Also to note, Ad2d vs AKo is 30.1%. I just cannot fathom how you can ever find a way of folding this.
surely the rest of the table would see that the reason for me folding is he has been so tight.
think of it like this AKo vs A2s or Ako vs J10s which would you want because I certainly know what my choice is
A2 was basically unlucky to have come at a time when he had something but I was never to know that all I knew was he didn't seem keen on doing the jam so their was free chips for me.
had I been able to see his 2 cards I would not have did that min raise.
if your going to fold, don't open in the first place
Perhaps it's me in the minority on this subject, who knows, but I'd be very surprised to see some of this sites biggest MTT winners, people like MattBates, TommyD, Yoyo, Stayorgo, Chicknmelt, come on here and say they are content to blind away to 8bb before getting shovy. Maybe one of them will prove me wrong....