Question

Jiggaman7

Hey guys, I have been reading a lot of the hands in the clinic and have a question- do we ever bet to protect our hand? If so when?

For example- let's say we have 89 and have raised and we get one caller from the blinds. The flop is 3 9 A. The villain checks to us...

Now whenever I read a similar hand in the clinic the consensus is to check back if we don't think we can get a) get worse hands to call b) get better hands to fold. This will then allow us to gain value on later streets from bluffs which would have just folded to the flop raise. To simplify, let us say we are certain a) and b) are true.

This makes total sense. So the question I have is when (if ever) do we bet to protect our hand? Just in case they have QJ for example. Same question for when we are deep and very short stacked apply.

Cheers.

chicknMelt

reasons for betting are slightly off...

a) getting worse hands to call

b) getting hands with good equity to fold

in your example, there are alot fo broadway cards that would fold to a cbet, and have decent equity vs your hand. I'd cbet this flop.

If in your example, you have A2, that would be a good example of a hand that would check back -most hands either have little equity vs you, or are already ahead. Hands worse than yours will only pay 1-2 bets anyway, and they are more likely to pay them on the turn/river than flop/turn.

LnarinOO

as ever there is a correct situation and time for a certain play-

peoples common thinking is only betting to get a call from a worse hand or to make a better hand fold- this is incorrect as there are other factors to think about imo

basically ppl start off by always putting ppl on a draw and then think they have to '' charge the draws'' but end up overplaying a certain hand or fail to get value from other parts of a given range - then they only decide to bet if they think there winning or think they can fold out a better hand- but in turn lose out on value by only thinking this way...

even if a certain bet is not designed to fold out better or gets calls from worse, thinking about protecting or preventing yourself being bluffed is a good way to expand your thinking- maybe rather than only thinking about the 2 ways you always here about...think about whether the turn or river is more likely to favour you or your opponent in a given situation and whether you need to protect a vunerable hand now- 

the more you think about the better and dont get caught up with common thinking- think more than others..!!

for instance in your example - it highly possible we have the best hand but cannot bet for value as such- but if we do check then it can be highly possible for us to be bluffed off the best hand by the river as we cannot take too much heat with this type of hand and just recklessly call down.. 

also if your hand is vunerable, the villain is unlikey to bluff or turn a second best hand, then obviously the best option would be to bet and try and take pot down without letting villain realise  his equity in the hand...

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Question:

as ever there is a correct situation and time for a certain play- peoples common thinking is only betting to get a call from a worse hand or to make a better hand fold- this is incorrect as there are other factors to think about imo basically ppl start off by always putting ppl on a draw and then think they have to '' charge the draws'' but end up overplaying a certain hand or fail to get value from other parts of a given range - then they only decide to bet if they think there winning or think they can fold out a better hand- but in turn lose out on value by only thinking this way... even if a certain bet is not designed to fold out better or gets calls from worse, thinking about protecting or preventing yourself being bluffed is a good way to expand your thinking- maybe rather than only thinking about the 2 ways you always here about...think about whether the turn or river is more likely to favour you or your opponent in a given situation and whether you need to protect a vunerable hand now-  the more you think about the better and dont get caught up with common thinking- think more than others..!! for instance in your example - it highly possible we have the best hand but cannot bet for value as such- but if we do check then it can be highly possible for us to be bluffed off the best hand by the river as we cannot take too much heat with this type of hand and just recklessly call down..  also if your hand is vunerable, the villain is unlikey to bluff or turn a second best hand, then obviously the best option would be to bet and try and take pot down without letting villain realise  his equity in the hand...
Posted by LnarinOO

+1 Post of the year imo

gracie24

There is another reason to bet which is to find where we are.

TeddyBloat

Any time our opponent surrenders equity we profit that surrendered equity. 

So if we have middle or bottom pair, we profit by getting our opponent to fold an overcard.

Eg we have 89 

Board is 39A

Pot is 100c

Opponent has QJ

Opponent has 27% equity, that is if the hand was checked down on avergae he will take 27 chips out of the pot.

By folding out his hand we essentially steal his equity and  gain those 27 chips.

percival09

can obviously bet for protection but it isn't exactly the best of plays usually. Can be ok but specific situations

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Question:

as ever there is a correct situation and time for a certain play- peoples common thinking is only betting to get a call from a worse hand or to make a better hand fold- this is incorrect as there are other factors to think about imo basically ppl start off by always putting ppl on a draw and then think they have to '' charge the draws'' but end up overplaying a certain hand or fail to get value from other parts of a given range - then they only decide to bet if they think there winning or think they can fold out a better hand- but in turn lose out on value by only thinking this way... even if a certain bet is not designed to fold out better or gets calls from worse, thinking about protecting or preventing yourself being bluffed is a good way to expand your thinking- maybe rather than only thinking about the 2 ways you always here about...think about whether the turn or river is more likely to favour you or your opponent in a given situation and whether you need to protect a vunerable hand now-  the more you think about the better and dont get caught up with common thinking- think more than others..!! for instance in your example - it highly possible we have the best hand but cannot bet for value as such- but if we do check then it can be highly possible for us to be bluffed off the best hand by the river as we cannot take too much heat with this type of hand and just recklessly call down..  also if your hand is vunerable, the villain is unlikey to bluff or turn a second best hand, then obviously the best option would be to bet and try and take pot down without letting villain realise  his equity in the hand...
Posted by LnarinOO

the reason for betting is the same really just explained in different wordings i mean what does 'betting to protect our hand' do? what do we want happen? ...so assuming we have the best hand as we are betting to protect, what do we want? a call or a fold? ...its a confusing way to look at it...

we either bet for value/calls, or bet to bluff/folds its as simple as that we know what we want lets not sugar coat it, you can complicate it as much as you like, but its unnecessary

other reasons we sometimes bet is to thin the field, and in that case when multi handed with a medium strength hand it is a bet that gives you info where you are in the hand as it is difficult to work out if we are ahead at this point but since we are not bluffing but its best to tell our selves we are betting for value etc as it is correct positive way of playing, but saying betting to protect in that instance is still a confusing negative way to look at it imo...

Basic principles of poker are simple and there is no need to complicate things as it is already a very complex game, as 'betting to protect our hand' means nothing ..