dym bubble

THEROCK573

right people, im an mtt player, used to play dyms back in the day but dont bother these days, i find them boring and im not even a winner in them either, down over 4 figures acutally on them, decided to go for priority this month tho but as i only make around 5-6k points from mtts ive decided to slot a few dyms in to make up to 10k, any way just wondered about this hand, obv im priced in to call so if it was an mtt id have to make it but in a dym im not sure as my hands trash even tho most likely live cards and were all short in relation to blind level. call or fold guys?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
forest2029	Small blind		300.00	300.00	3175.00
THEROCK573	Big blind		600.00	900.00	2675.00
	Your hole cards	3 5
madpete	Fold
DrewMcRobb	All-in		1185.00	2085.00	0.00
forest2029	Fold
THEROCK573	Call		585.00	2670.00	2090.00
THEROCK573	Show	3 5
DrewMcRobb	Show	A 6

VespaPX

Fold for me
Don't want to be doubling up the shorty.
Chances are someone will be out before BB comes round to you again.

profman15

I understand your predicament but this isn't the time or hand as

1. You and he are fighting the bubble

2. You have the sb topay next and will need some fold equity against bigger stacks. Pay the sb and if other shortie does not enter pot then an ai will probably be allowed through by bigger stacks who want you and he to fight it out.

THEROCK573

ok guys thanks, just a paragraph from johnconners dym thread here though says its a call. different table position but same concept. he wrote as follows vv

Suppose there are 4 players left. The 2 players first to act have 4,500 chips each. You are in the big blind and you and the small blind both have 1,500 before posting. The big blind is 400. The small blind shoves on you. To me this is a ‘them or me’ spot and I recommend calling with any two cards (don’t worry about the impending abuse when you win the hand).

stuarty117

Hi Rock

IMO you were not in a me or them spot just yet.

If you had of folded you still had 2670 chips left, other player would have took the blinds and still would have been under 2000.


If he shoves the next time then this is closer to a you or me spot.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

Hi Rock IMO you were not in a me or them spot just yet. If you had of folded you still had 2670 chips left, other player would have took the blinds and still would have been under 2000. If he shoves the next time then this is closer to a you or me spot.
Posted by stuarty117

hi mate, i have a shorter stack than what john connors example is tho in relation to the blinds, im not a dym player so all advice is welcome though and will listen to all corners.

Jac35

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

Hi Rock IMO you were not in a me or them spot just yet. If you had of folded you still had 2670 chips left, other player would have took the blinds and still would have been under 2000. If he shoves the next time then this is closer to a you or me spot.
Posted by stuarty117

Understand what you're saying Stuarty.

One thing that I look at though. If opponent is decent, then it's not a case of " if" he shoves next time, it's "when"

We're actually unlikely to be a huge dog in this hand. 

Call this time and a decent % of the time we cash there and then. Lose and we're still in the game.

Fold this time and next time we won't still be in the game if we lose.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

In Response to Re: dym bubble : Understand what you're saying Stuarty. One thing that I look at though. If opponent is decent, then it's not a case of " if" he shoves next time, it's "when" We're actually unlikely to be a huge dog in this hand.  Call this time and a decent % of the time we cash there and then. Lose and we're still in the game. Fold this time and next time we won't still be in the game if we lose.
Posted by Jac35

so what side of the fence u on then jac, call or fold?

Jac35

Lol

Yeah, looked like I may be getting some splinters there!

I hate it, but call

stuarty117

I perhaps am too tight sometimes but with 35 I would fold. We can hopefully get a better spot. But then again blinds are that high we may not, as we can end it now by calling as Jac said.

I like these discussions about DYMs as you are always learning.

I know rock you said you find them boring but they can be quite fun, especially near the end.

Jac35

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

I perhaps am too tight sometimes but with 35 I would fold. We can hopefully get a better spot. But then again blinds are that high we may not, as we can end it now by calling as Jac said. I like these discussions about DYMs as you are always learning. I know rock you said you find them boring but they can be quite fun, especially near the end.
Posted by stuarty117

Yeah, obv 3 5 isn't really the hand we want to be calling with. Trouble is at this stage we can't be waiting for better spots. Basically, we are going to have to call next time with any 2 and so we can do it now and still be in the game.

Agree about the Dyms. My trouble is, I'm hopeless at trying to explain myself. Played over 8000 now and as you say, we are always learning.

..

just for fun, I did a quick calculation.

I assume everyone would snap call with KQ here?

Only 6% better chance of winning the hand than 53!

stuarty117

I just got called a fish callin this. Player had went allin about 5 or 6 times

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxxx	Small blind		150.00	150.00	3237.50
stuarty117	Big blind		300.00	450.00	1135.00
	Your hole cards	7 Q
uuuu	Fold
ttttt	Fold
xxxx	All-in		3237.50	3687.50	0.00
stuarty117	All-in		1135.00	4822.50	0.00
xxxx	Unmatched bet		1952.50	2870.00	1952.50
xxxx	Show	K A
stuarty117	Show	7 Q
Flop
		A 8 6
Turn
		5
River
		9
stuarty117	Win	Straight to the 9	2870.00

F_Ivanovic

I would call. "them or me" definitely applies here and pretty sure an ICM would show this to be a call. 34% of the time or so we win then and there. The rest of the time we still have 2k chips and probably still cash as much as the other short stack. If we fold now tho then we might cash slightly more often than the short stack but not by much.

@Jac: KQ has way more equity than 35!! If BTN is shoving 80% then KQ has 60% equity and 35 only 35%. 

Jac35

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

I would call. "them or me" definitely applies here and pretty sure an ICM would show this to be a call. 34% of the time or so we win then and there. The rest of the time we still have 2k chips and probably still cash as much as the other short stack. If we fold now tho then we might cash slightly more often than the short stack but not by much. @Jac: KQ has way more equity than 35!! If BTN is shoving 80% then KQ has 60% equity and 35 only 35%. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Just used poker calculator against that specific holding

jdsallstar

I'm really not sure if i call here or not. I think how the table's playing in general at this stage needs to be taken into account. Especially the person sitting to your left. If its a very aggressive table with people likely to call shoves or if it's really passive. 

option 1 fold - you've got a 2675 to shove next hand (or 2375 if you dont get a chance to shove from sb).

option 2 call - you lose so you've got 2085 to shove from small blind.

If the person to your left is very unlikely to call your shove of 2085 then I go for option 2 and call. If i think he's a little looser i think I fold to have the bigger shoving stack.

From a probability point of view as well, say you call this time and lose and then shove the next hand and get called - you'll have two bites at the cherry to win I suppose. Say you're a 30% underdog both times (just for an example) the chance you lose both is 70% x 70% i.e. 49%. So 51% of the time you either cash when you call the first time or double to 4k chips when you shove the next time and get called. But your % of cashing must be more than this because your shove on the next hand doesnt get called every time. Links nicely to my first point the more likely the shove in the following hand gets through the more likely I am to call the small stack shove.

Not sure that makes sense but that's the best I can do lol 

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: dym bubble:

I'm really not sure if i call here or not. I think how the table's playing in general at this stage needs to be taken into account. Especially the person sitting to your left. If its a very aggressive table with people likely to call shoves or if it's really passive.  option 1 fold - you've got a 2675 to shove next hand (or 2375 if you dont get a chance to shove from sb). option 2 call - you lose so you've got 2085 to shove from small blind. If the person to your left is very unlikely to call your shove of 2085 then I go for option 2 and call. If i think he's a little looser i think I fold to have the bigger shoving stack. From a probability point of view as well, say you call this time and lose and then shove the next hand and get called - you'll have two bites at the cherry to win I suppose. Say you're a 30% underdog both times (just for an example) the chance you lose both is 70% x 70% i.e. 49%. So 51% of the time you either cash when you call the first time or double to 4k chips when you shove the next time and get called. But your % of cashing must be more than this because your shove on the next hand doesnt get called every time. Links nicely to my first point the more likely the shove in the following hand gets through the more likely I am to call the small stack shove. Not sure that makes sense but that's the best I can do lol 
Posted by jdsallstar

very passive the guy to my left.

bev60

I find when I play a lot of DYMs they become like one long game rather than series of short games. Option 2 for me I think, just.

DoubleAAA

We have to call here all day long Rock so well played.  Pot odds we only need to be good 22.3% of the time although that does not really apply,  so let's look at the important factor and that's ICM.

So before we make our decision our ICM equity is 26.4%.

Call and win = cash
call and lose = 19.5% ICM Equity a drop of 6.9% which includes posting of the sb next hand
fold = 23.3% ICM Equity a drop of 3.1%(as we have to post the sb next hand)

We still have enough fold equity to shove if it folds around to us in the next hand, if we were to call with the 35o and lose.  So in summary our equity drops by very little if we call and lose, whilst if we call and win we cash.