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Nit is best at NL10 or lower?
shakinaces
Member Posts: 1,590
I've never seen this player on my tables before, so it is probably a relevant query to tweak my game against any random.
He'd been there for maybe one orbit and the only hand I'd played with him was SB v BB where he bluffed the river (after I had opted to check call) and I took about 30bb.
Should I always be leaning towards folding KK to a 5 bet at these levels? And not consider anything other than set-mining when the 3b and 5b are so small?
He'd been there for maybe one orbit and the only hand I'd played with him was SB v BB where he bluffed the river (after I had opted to check call) and I took about 30bb.
Should I always be leaning towards folding KK to a 5 bet at these levels? And not consider anything other than set-mining when the 3b and 5b are so small?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| harvey | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £10.19 | |
| mike | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £9.90 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| louis | Fold | ||||
| shakinaces | Raise | £0.30 | £0.45 | £13.35 | |
| daniel | Raise | £0.50 | £0.95 | £7.69 | |
| harvey | Fold | ||||
| mike | Fold | ||||
| shakinaces | Raise | £1.00 | £1.95 | £12.35 | |
| daniel | Raise | £1.60 | £3.55 | £6.09 |
Comments
As to your question. It is an interesting one, as low levels a lot of players are massively nitty with their 3bet range, and hence even tighter with 4bet or shove ranges. I don't like folding kings though unless we have real belief his only hand can be AA, and at this price I'm not convinced yet.
To serious raising preflop I will consider folding QQ to 4bet or higher at low limits, as sooo often their range is so tight it will only be JJ+ and AK. I actually found while grinding low limits QQ was a leak of mine being prepared to ship it preflop without evidence they were a little more loose. I can't see me doing it will KK though even if they are tight. Only one hand ahead of us and I can't fold thinking every time I'm 4bet or more they always have AA.
Some will say folding a 4bet is bad, but I dunno I agree with that. I'd rather lose £2.50-£3.00 than stack off when I'm fairly sure they aren't doing this often lighter than I am.
4-Bet folding KK is definitely awful.
This is a 100% ship. If he has AA this time it's just variance.
What am I expecting to see though if I GII pre with Kings for full stack? I keep reviewing my hands and every single time (at NL10 cash or lower) that I'm donating stacks with KK, where I've been 4b or 5b the villain has Aces... I mean, I'm not finding even JJ/QQ/AK (not even KK for a rake donation / flush bad beat).
I struggle to see how it can solely be put down to variance when oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA (in the same way as variance when I GII on flop with set vs flush draw etc).
Is it really not a leak to be losing stacks here every time?
'Oppo holdings are so weighted towards KK/AA'
You just can't narrow a completely random player's range down to AA here.
If you keep getting in KK v AA is generally gonna be variance. If you genuinely think a villain's Gii range pre-flop is AA/KK only then just adjust and exploit them.
This is not a situation where you can assign the villain such a tight range.
And use notes for players ranges. It's the only way to know what their 3bet, 4bet etc ranges are. But folding KK to one better hand won't be a good long-term plan at all. Yes, pro's fold KK, and there are some occasions you can, but with no information I'd not fold KK in cash game.
So take notes, mark the uber n its at your table while playing. If they tight on open raising period, you can be sure their 3bet+ ranges are nitty as heck.
I don't like having a general rule to make a 4-bet three times the 3-bet, as has been suggested. It can make 4-bet bluffing way too expensive 100BBeff. We can leverage our stack while 4-betting considerably less:
Instead of 3-- />9-->27 we can make it 3-->9-->20/21.
Just to reiterate, we need to know what we want the villain to do when we make the 4-bet. The dynamic between us should tell us whether they consider our range or just play their own hand. If they do think about our range, then what do they think we can be 4-betting with?
We can't just say "4-bet-folding KK is bad, 80BBeff" if we know the villain thinks about our range and we are never expected to be lighter than KK. Why do we have that image, though? If we know we have that image, then why do we 4-bet against this villain at all?
(Obviously I'm not folding KK pre-flop, before anyone thinks I'm suggesting that. We just need to be thinking about how our history affects our perceived range, villain's range, etc., etc...)
KK pre... ship it. You'l find yourself up against AK a whole lot, QQ a bit and against certain players AQ, JJ and 1010 or even worse.
Yes occassionally they have AA, but **** ****...
How nitty do we have to be to fold KK pre?
If I knew you were folding KK to a 4 or 5 bet at these levels, well think of the fun I could have!
So we are clear.
KK is the second best starting hand in poker. We have to KNOW he has AA well over half the time to fold pre.
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
You can always count on gazza to break it down for the lowest common denominator. But he's right. There are very few occasions where you should be folding kings pre, even when you 'kinda think' he may have aces, that's still not really a good enough thought process to lay down your hand.