Jam or fold?

LARSON7

Just wondering what peoples opinions on this were, jam or fold?

If it's a fold, what's your shoving range here?

parrotupSmall blind 100.00100.005190.00LARSON7Big blind 200.00300.003109.50 Your hole cards44   donnabeluckyFold    GWSTOONRaise 400.00700.007830.50K4MBOCall 400.001100.004951.00parrotupFold    LARSON7All-in 3109.5

77Chris91

Don't hate flatting tbh.

Is a 15bb stack to short to peel for 1bb in an MTT with no antes idk?

Prefer to jam like 8's+ and some suited broadways personally.

Imo all 3 options are pretty close.

Slipwater

I'm leaning towards the flat call, and just get away from any flop that doesn't include a 4 or isn't A 2 3

F_Ivanovic

Depends solely on how often the opener is raising. If he's opening really tight then set-mining might be OK. If he's opening normal/loosely then I'm either playing fold/shove. Shoving if I think I have fold equity - folding otherwise.

CraigSG1

Jamming isn't worst thing in the world as long as we are doing this with our very strong hands too. But I prefer a call as it's only 1 BB and there is potential for a treble up if not a cheap double. 

As to what range it depends on the usual. Our image, buttons image etc. against unknowns I would prefer decent suited aces, AJ+ and 99+ and KQo+ KJs +. 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

Depends solely on how often the opener is raising. If he's opening really tight then set-mining might be OK. If he's opening normal/loosely then I'm either playing fold/shove. Shoving if I think I have fold equity - folding otherwise.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

+1.

We have to get the shove through the first guy. The second caller has a very capped range (unless they have been tricky with premium to induce this), any call from them is for a good chunk of their stack so they are gonna fold almost always here. All depends on the opener as Ivan says.

hhyftrftdr

Can see why people think calling is an attractive option, but problems arise when it comes down a raggy 2 5 9 (or similar). Are we simply binning 44 unless we hit the 4 or maybe a 235 flop? Obvs its an easy fold on a high flop, but feel we can get pushed off the best hand too easily on a low/middling board.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

Depends solely on how often the opener is raising. If he's opening really tight then set-mining might be OK. If he's opening normal/loosely then I'm either playing fold/shove. Shoving if I think I have fold equity - folding otherwise.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Pretty much this, my default would be to jam

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

Can see why people think calling is an attractive option, but problems arise when it comes down a raggy 2 5 9 (or similar). Are we simply binning 44 unless we hit the 4 or maybe a 235 flop? Obvs its an easy fold on a high flop, but feel we can get pushed off the best hand too easily on a low/middling board.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I only think its ok to call here as we are 3 handed (twice the oppertunity to double up AND a possible trebble up however remote) and already have money in the pot and another 200 doesnt affect our stack. As long as we are disciplined enough not to invest any more unless we hit nice then I cant see why its not profitable. Even on a 2 5 9 flop I wouldnt call even a min bet.

 

I just view it as buying a cheap ticket and if we miss, we miss. 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

In Response to Re: Jam or fold? : I only think its ok to call here as we are 3 handed (twice the oppertunity to double up AND a possible trebble up however remote) and already have money in the pot and another 200 doesnt affect our stack. As long as we are disciplined enough not to invest any more unless we hit nice then I cant see why its not profitable. Even on a 2 5 9 flop I wouldnt call even a min bet.   I just view it as buying a cheap ticket and if we miss, we miss. 
Posted by CraigSG1

Might come down to something as silly as when the blinds go up. If they have just gone up, then I think a peel becomes that little bit more attractive. If they are to go up next hand, we essentially have a 10bb stack and thus chucking in the extra blind would be pretty poor IMO.

Like Chris said, think all 3 options are close, and all 3 have their merits. The table image of hero and initial opener would sway my decision making.

daiw

i dun mind a shove alot of the time u will get folds and take a decent pot. if not u will probally be racing. i think a shove is gd

chicknMelt

standard shove if the original opener has been opening a decent amount IMO

If its a BH, and the opener had been known to "bounty hunt" then I'll probably just peel. 1bb for the size of pot and implied odds has to be worth it even from such a small stack.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

In Response to Re: Jam or fold? : Might come down to something as silly as when the blinds go up. If they have just gone up, then I think a peel becomes that little bit more attractive. If they are to go up next hand, we essentially have a 10bb stack and thus chucking in the extra blind would be pretty poor IMO. Like Chris said, think all 3 options are close, and all 3 have their merits. The table image of hero and initial opener would sway my decision making.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

why?

on the hand itself we are being paid to set mine

and if blinds are up next hand spending the extra bb or not is pretty irrelevant

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

In Response to Re: Jam or fold? : why? on the hand itself we are being paid to set mine and if blinds are up next hand spending the extra bb or not is pretty irrelevant
Posted by GELDY

How are we being paid to set-mine? We have to put in another 200 chips. It's generally accepted that we need at least 20x behind to make set-mining profitable in a HU pot. This is because even when we do flop a set (1 in 7.5 times) we don't always get paid. (and sometimes we hit but can still lose) So when we do get paid we need to win at least 20x to make up for the times we just have to give up on the flop. If opponent is really tight, then we can maybe go to 13/14x because we will be paid more often. Alternatively if villain is really bad post flop then 15x behind might be good enough (since again we will be paid more often)

Since this is a 3 way pot and not a HU pot it's more likely that when we hit one of our opponents will have something but it's still not a guarantee that we will always be paid in full. So I'd guess at maybe needing at least 18x behind for a call to be worthwhile. Now if one of the villains is bad and/or the raiser is tight than this can go down to as low as 13/14x behind. (and if both villains are really bad maybe as low as 10x because of the potential of trebling up)

Looking at the hand here it's 200 to call and we have 2900 behind. So that's 14.5x behind. So if opponent is opening a reasonable range and the other villain isn't bad, then it's probably a fold because we need at least 18x behind and only have 14.5x. If the opener is really tight and likely has a range of JJ+ and AQ/AK then calling becomes OK because we are more likely to be paid in full if we do hit our set.  

Blinds going up next level are relevant because it determines whether or not we should consider shoving if villain is on the looser side (but still capable of folding) - ie. supposing I was the opener here then in hero's shoes I would be happy to shove 44 especially if blinds are going up soon. But if blinds still have a bit to go then it's not so necessary that we take this spot.

hhyftrftdr

What Ivan said, Geldy.   

GELDY

In Response to Re: Jam or fold?:

What Ivan said, Geldy.   
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Ivan's comments great as always but doesn't get you off the hook harry.

we are being paid to setmine - whether enough or not as per Ivan. and if the blinds are going up then i think there may be more chance that the oppo will pay us off in this hand. 

hhyftrftdr

We are not being paid to set mine. That would only be the case if it was a limped pot. If the blinds are about to go up, then essentially we are nursing a 10bb stack. Do you setmine out of a 10bb stack? 44 simply isn't strong enough to play anything other than no set no bet.

LARSON7

A call isnt terrible, 200 into 1100, so about 5.5/5-1.

In title "jam or fold" folding looks pretty bad here. Defo call />fold. Probably is a jam.

It is a BH, so people will call pretty wide hopefully flip well and hopefully not be up against a higher pair..

In the hand, original raiser folded, the button called with AJ.