Nut Flush Draw

ClintonH83

Last night played a deep stack at my local casino... The situation was I got dealt AK of clubs, I raised 4x the bb which was 800 and got two callers. Flop 10c 9h 2c 
I bet 10k, one folded and the other guy went all in for 60k which if I called would of left me with 20k.. I decided to call and he turned over 89... So he had a pair of 9's! Anyway I hit a K on the river and got abuse from him and some others but also applauded by other lol

I didn't understand either the abuse or the applause? Surly this was a pretty standard call no? Ok its leaving me with 20k but the chance to win a nice pot on the nut flush draw and two possible over cards?

I've just always thought if u have 4 to the nut flush draw your basically trying to get it in...?

Lambert180

Well if a 4x is 800, that means the BB is 200 which means his 60k shove is a 300xBB shove!!! I'd be pretty reluctant to calling off a 300xBB shove  pretty much any scenario without the nuts.

Terrible shove from him, and not the best call in the world but not the worst either if he's capable of shoving loads of 1pr hands I guess.

hhyftrftdr

Clinton do you mean you raised 4x whilst the blinds were 400/800 (so 3200)? Or you raised 4x that made it 800 to play? I assume the former, as that would make more sense to then bet 10k on the flop.

I think the call is fine if the blinds are 400/800. Not a big fan of the call if the blinds are 100/200 (what Paul said).

FWIW, yeah it's great if we flop the nut flush draw, especially if we are the PFR and in position. We can play our hand strongly whilst semi bluffing. But it's not always the case that you want to play for stacks if you flop the NFD. If I had that example above in the first level of the Roller tonight, I certainly wouldn't be looking to get it all in on just a draw. Conversely, if the same scenario happened in the first level of the Turbo, I couldn't get my chips over the line quick enough!

Also gonna depend (that word again) on your villain. If you know oppo is only playing for stacks with a set or maybe 2 pair, then folding becomes the much better option as our equity dwindles. If however we have a customer like the 89 guy, who made a ridiculous shove, then yeah if its safe to assume our overcards are live plus the flush draw obvs, then it would be foolish to not look to get all the chips in.

ClintonH83

Sorry Lambert I've wrote it wrong... The bb was 800, so I made it 3200 pre flop

ClintonH83

In Response to Re: Nut Flush Draw:

Clinton do you mean you raised 4x whilst the blinds were 400/800 (so 3200)? Or you raised 4x that made it 800 to play? I assume the former, as that would make more sense to then bet 10k on the flop. I think the call is fine if the blinds are 400/800. Not a big fan of the call if the blinds are 100/200 (what Paul said). FWIW, yeah it's great if we flop the nut flush draw, especially if we are the PFR and in position. We can play our hand strongly whilst semi bluffing. But it's not always the case that you want to play for stacks if you flop the NFD. If I had that example above in the first level of the Roller tonight, I certainly wouldn't be looking to get it all in on just a draw. Conversely, if the same scenario happened in the first level of the Turbo, I couldn't get my chips over the line quick enough! Also gonna depend (that word again) on your villain. If you know oppo is only playing for stacks with a set or maybe 2 pair, then folding becomes the much better option as our equity dwindles. If however we have a customer like the 89 guy, who made a ridiculous shove, then yeah if its safe to assume our overcards are live plus the flush draw obvs, then it would be foolish to not look to get all the chips in.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Yes that's right the blinds were 400/800 so id made it 3200 pre...  So in that scenario it was an ok call? I don't mind abuse from people, I quite enjoy it lol but 5 of the other 8 players on the table were on my case saying It was a bad call blah blah and I was thinking was it? Maybe im wrong here but I would be more happier to call with NFD than with pocket AA?

hhyftrftdr

I'm not overly in love with the call, bearing in mind its a deepstack event so probs has a slower structure etc, but if the guy is bad enough to reraise all in with 2nd pair no kicker.... and the other players commenting wanna have a look at themselves. No need to abuse someone at the table.

Meh if were wrong/miss we still have 25bb. Yeah if we have AA and the concern is that they have a set, we have nowhere to go with our bullets, drawing super thin. At least with NFD we can never be drawing dead and have reasonable equity whatever their holding. Though I wouldn't be too concerned of a set with that big reraise all in tbh.

CraigSG1

I dont mind the call so much as the shove doesnt make that much sense. I dont think he is ever shoving with a super strong hand, I think our biggest worry would be bottom 2 pair but I would think he has a draw/weak made hand more often than not so we are always in good shape calling.

I would probably fold as this is a deep stack but I dont think your far off wrong either as this gives you a great stack if you win and a playable stack if you lose.

ZIPPY146

Hi clinton

to me these are defining moments in any tournaments 1.u have15 outs twice so that makes u approx60/40 ahead...2 It shows the rest of the table u r a strong player not to be messed with.3.U have doubled up and put yourself in a good position in the tournament. its win,win,win

gl clinton

profman15

Haha

Tbh m8 . He shot himself in the foot . Such a big raise is more weak than strong. ITS A POOR PLAY.  ON HIS BEHALF IMO Points are reached in MTT's where you need to think ahead and consider that you need to make a big pot to make your ss more flexible in the levels ahead. I don't know what the average ss was but this is a consideration. 

He tried a silly bluff . Your best bet would have been to say that he has an OBVIOUS PHYSICAL TELL so until he gets rid of it he shouldn't play big pots with you.....

With 35% equity just for the flush the pot odds can't be that far off being ok. If you are happy to take the chance then fine. 

And don't forget that your table image will now be a bit "steer clear of him for big bluffs" consequently making your play easier.

crassh

Clinton,

Your bet sizing seems all wrong to me.

What do you bet if you have JQ suited?  If it's not 4x, then you are giving off sizing tells.  If it is 4x, I'd say that is way too large, at this stage, you should be looking at somewhere up to 2.5x.  On the flop, potting it is bad.  So all in all, you've basically bloated a pot to 20K or so when it should have been around 9K and his shove would have been even more insane than it actually was.

Has played and whether you should call or not, mathmatically it's probably right on the cusp, so then you have to work out what your edge is in the game, if it is good, fold, if it isn't, put it in.  For you to be berated is nonsense, the call was standard, the all in was insanity.