Generic AK line-check

shakinaces

Is this just a leak to be calling as opposed to fold / 4-bet, particularly when OOP?

3-bettor (better?) is a fairly sound reg multi-tabler and I figure that this could just as easily be a squeeze with cards that flop well as it could be a premium hand that has me dominated. 

The first player that called my bet seemed to be fairly weak passive, the second was a bit of a maniac and it wouldn't have been entirely shocking if he'd 4-bet (and not necessarily with a premium hand).

If I call, which may be the worst option pre, am I pretty much obliged to put more money in on the flop?

I'd expect the 3-bettor to cbet majority of flops in position, yet the flop could well have hit him reasonably well with all sorts of AQ/JT/KQ/QJ hands, even hands like KJ/J9, as well as if this was a time he has QQ/KK/AA.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SB	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.03
BB	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£47.68
	Your hole cards	K A
shakinaces	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.70
WP	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£14.00
Maniac	Call		£0.30	£1.05	£5.52
Villain	Raise		£1.65	£2.70	£21.34
SB	Fold
BB	Fold
shakinaces	Call		£1.35	£4.05	£18.35
WP	Fold
maniac	Fold
Flop
		10 2 Q
shakinaces	Check
villain	Bet		£3.04	£7.09	£18.30
shakinac

Lambert180

Never ever folding pre when we're 200xBB deep.

4betting against some people is good, against others calling is better when we're this deep but I'm not folding pre.

I'd probably flat the flop too, we have a backdoor NFD, we have a GS to the nuts and it's pretty likely at least one of overs is still good

grantorino

Reads? 

Flatting pre best option this deep imo, wouldn't like to get it in pre and I'm not 4b/f AK. 

Doubt villain is squeezing a maniac who might 4b without a good hand if he is good reg

Flop meh it depends I prob flat, might raise sometimes. In general if you flat AK pre I think you kinda have to call one bet on almost any board without clear reads

77Chris91

Pre - Like flatting. You keep in all of the combos of Ax/Kx that you have crushed. You also give WP/Maniac a chance to do something stupid which you can pretty much snap off if btn folds...

Flop - Got to flat 1 street. You have a GS + BDNFD + 2 potentially live overs. Too much equity to fold.

C/Jam any turn heart or J and C/C any A/K.

Considering the positions against some villains I would C/C a Q/10 as well.

freshfish1

The thing is as played you really have no idea what he has as played. Does he 3b the button light or have you only ever seen him do it for value? Calling oop leaves us vunerable unless we either flop an ace or a strong draw. Here you have a GS + overs but you're still oop with no real clue to oppos hand. C/Calling he sucks imo as if you miss (likely) what's your plan on tu (c/f if he bets again would be default). Personally I prefer 4betting oop but not the usuall 3x 3bet, more like 2.5 so something like £4 - £4.20 here. If he calls you should be able to narrow his range considerably. 22 and AQ should fold here TT may too if he's tight. Firing 1/2 to 2/3 pot on the flop then should do the trick. If you get raised or called here you're pretty sure you're beat. I just think at this level it makes your decisions easier and less guesswork IMO.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

The thing is as played you really have no idea what he has as played. Does he 3b the button light or have you only ever seen him do it for value? Calling oop leaves us vunerable unless we either flop an ace or a strong draw. Here you have a GS + overs but you're still oop with no real clue to oppos hand. C/Calling he sucks imo as if you miss (likely) what's your plan on tu (c/f if he bets again would be default). Personally I prefer 4betting oop but not the usuall 3x 3bet, more like 2.5 so something like £4 - £4.20 here. If he calls you should be able to narrow his range considerably. 22 and AQ should fold here TT may too if he's tight. Firing 1/2 to 2/3 pot on the flop then should do the trick. If you get raised or called here you're pretty sure you're beat. I just think at this level it makes your decisions easier and less guesswork IMO.
Posted by freshfish1

Are you talking about 4betting pre? Doesn't sound like a good idea imo if he folds AQ. If you think his calling range is  JJ+ you ain't taking it down with a cbet that often either. 

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your post, I'm finding it difficult to follow

freshfish1

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check : Are you talking about 4betting pre? Doesn't sound like a good idea imo if he folds AQ. If you think his calling range is  JJ+ you ain't taking it down with a cbet that often either.  Apologies if I'm misinterpreting your post, I'm finding it difficult to follow
Posted by grantorino

Yeah, as a general rule my default play with AKs is to 4bet readless. If I have notes then it becomes completely situational. I'm happy to GII pre vs players that I've seen jam with less (not very often btw) and call vs nits to see what happens.
Personally, I find AK very hard to play post flop and OOP unless I flop either a strong made hand or draw. I don't think two overs and a GS is that strong OOP against an opponents range that we aren't too sure about.

I see your point about c-betting. I have sometimes run into difficulties here by running multi street bluffs just to be called down. Selective aggression is something I need to work on! And I'm open to suggestions since I'm somewhat of a novice at these kind of stakes:)

LARSON7

Really freshfish1?

You played very well from  the one time I played you. Some how doubt you are "new" to 10 nl:)

freshfish1

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

Really freshfish1? You played very well from  the one time I played you. Some how doubt you are "new" to 10 nl:)
Posted by LARSON7

Tx for the compliment:) I usually play higher but have dreadful bankroll management! I'm trying to improve this by playing at NL 10:) It's not my normal stakes but I'm determined to make a fist of it as I don't quite have the spare money I used to:(
I think some areas I need to develop are adapting to the ranges of the huge mixture of NL10 players. I frequently overthink the hands (apologies to you the other night when I took ages to call with that straight but I was genuinely going through the hand in my head). My general fairly aggressive style of play tends to get me in some sticky spots at these levels but hey, that's why I'm posting on the forums:)
See you at the tables

LARSON7

What did you play?

You are easily going to clean up at 10nl.

freshfish1

Anything from nl 30 to 200, depending on how i felt and how much money i had in my account! It was only ever going to end badly though with most of my bankroll on the tables at any one time i would play:(

As for this journey i'm doing ok atm but its not without swings. Eg was up 50 on 1 mastercash table but down 40 across the others.

I do sometimes feel you need to play more ABC poker as it were down here. Relentlessly value betting good hands instead of trapping is better. Running multi street bluffs is generally a recipe for disaster for me, but i still do it sometimes. 

With regards to the thread AK is a hand i particularly hate, especially oop. It is strong pre but unless you flop a pair or draw it can be trouble otf. I do tend to barrell it when i miss more than i should, just to get called down by second or third pair lol! Something to work on:)

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

Never ever folding pre when we're 200xBB deep. 4betting against some people is good, against others calling is better when we're this deep but I'm not folding pre. I'd probably flat the flop too, we have a backdoor NFD, we have a GS to the nuts and it's pretty likely at least one of overs is still good
Posted by Lambert180

Hi Paul. Just been reading through these threads (bored in work) and spotted this one. 

Which type of player is it better to 4bet against? 

How much does position influence our decision to 4bet?

Thanks

JD

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check : Hi Paul. Just been reading through these threads (bored in work) and spotted this one.  Which type of player is it better to 4bet against?  How much does position influence our decision to 4bet? Thanks JD
Posted by jdsallstar

Well there are a lot of regs who when facing a 4bet will only ever continue (whether that's in the form of flatting or 5betting) with maybe QQ+ and AK and against this range we are in pretty awful shape so 4betting AK them would be bluffing with AK essentially cos if we get any action we're screwed.

When we 4bet with AK it should be for value so we do it against people that are a little bit looser pre, either because we think we can get it in pre in good shape or because we think they'll call with worse hands.

Just think about what is likely to happen when you do X. If you think they will only continue with better hands to X action, then ofc it's not a good idea to make that move.

Position is important, it's often preferable to 4bet AK OOP because it can be tricky to play OOP if the 3bettor is a good player. Although that's not an excuse to just get it in pre against anyone cos we don't know what to do. There are some players I would never dream of getting 100xBB in pre with AK against. Sometimes against a really tight player we can even just fold pre here because 4betting is bad and calling a 3bet OOP against a very tight 3bet range isn't geat either.

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check:

In Response to Re: Generic AK line-check : Well there are a lot of regs who when facing a 4bet will only ever continue (whether that's in the form of flatting or 5betting) with maybe QQ+ and AK and against this range we are in pretty awful shape so 4betting AK them would be bluffing with AK essentially cos if we get any action we're screwed. When we 4bet with AK it should be for value so we do it against people that are a little bit looser pre, either because we think we can get it in pre in good shape or because we think they'll call with worse hands. Just think about what is likely to happen when you do X. If you think they will only continue with better hands to X action, then ofc it's not a good idea to make that move. Position is important, it's often preferable to 4bet AK OOP because it can be tricky to play OOP if the 3bettor is a good player. Although that's not an excuse to just get it in pre against anyone cos we don't know what to do. There are some players I would never dream of getting 100xBB in pre with AK against. Sometimes against a really tight player we can even just fold pre here because 4betting is bad and calling a 3bet OOP against a very tight 3bet range isn't geat either.
Posted by Lambert180

Good man! As always much appreciated.