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Should I be mucking it in this situation?

dabossmandabossman Member Posts: 213
edited April 2014 in Strategy
This post is more about the situation rather than how the hand played out. Villian is a decent reg who I have played a few times and as I had position I had been 3 betting them a lot and finally picked up a hand.

I find myself in this kind of situation with big pairs a lot on connected boards and I am always thinking about the kind of hands that would check raise the flop. They could have nothing and just be trying to outplay me on a board that I may give up on. They could have a massive draw and are happy to play a big pot with it, so I can call the check raise and assess the turn. Or they could have the set that the check raise usually signifies at this level.

So the question, am I overthinking the hand? Should I just be folding in these types of spots and accept they have the set? That feels nitty but maybe being a nit is the right play. I dont know, I am confused!!!!

  

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
PietraSmall blind £0.05£0.05£6.78
lisa1962Big blind £0.10£0.15£9.90
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • A
   
VillianRaise £0.30£0.45£8.63
dabossmanRaise £0.70£1.15£10.08
GeordieRobFold    
junior10Fold    
PietraFold    
lisa1962Fold    
VillianCall £0.40£1.55£8.23
Flop
  
  • J
  • 2
  • 9
   
VillianCheck    
dabossmanBet £0.90£2.45£9.18
VillianRaise £2.40£4.85£5.83
dabossmanCall £1.50£6.35£7.68
Turn
  
  • 7
   
VillianBet £2.70£9.05£3.13
dabossmanCall £2.70£11.75£4.98
River
  
  • 5
   
VillianAll-in £3.13£14.88

Comments

  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited April 2014
    We need to make the 3 bet bigger pre.  90p or £1 would be much better with our entire 3 bet range.  We want to build the pot.  When we 3 bet smaller we give people the ability to call wider... which can be OK but it does mean we have difficulty putting people on a hand post flop, and can invite other players into the hand.  We don't want to be playing AA multiway. 

    Flop bet is fine.

    Now the raise on the flop is generally going to be one of two things.  Either a big hand such as two pair or a set, or draws such as 10 8,  Q 10,  hearts etc.  You seem to have played the reg for a while.  We should have an idea if he calls for his draws or if he plays them aggressively.  This can help us make our decision on the flop or on later streets.

    If I don't know the villain I may call the raise on the flop and reassess on the turn,  however it is a little more difficult with stack sizes.

    The turn sizing is odd from villain.  To be perfectly honest I have no idea what it means as i dont have any reads, however as played when we call the turn we can never ever fold the river when it bricks off.  That'd be setting fire to money.

    Trouble is that we have the blocker to the nut flush draw too which limits his heart draws a little.  Id be more inclined to think he has a set or straight draw.  If I had to put money on it, I reckon he has 10 8  and got there on the turn and didnt want to lose his customer :)
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation?:
    We need to make the 3 bet bigger pre.  90p or £1 would be much better with our entire 3 bet range.  We want to build the pot.  When we 3 bet smaller we give people the ability to call wider... which can be OK but it does mean we have difficulty putting people on a hand post flop, and can invite other players into the hand.
    Posted by gazza127
    Is this always valid, when dabossman notes he has been 3-betting a lot? Unless that is referencing a card rush, a lot of these will be bluff-3-bets and if you are being that aggressive wouldn't it be better to size smaller and create better value for taking it down pre (7BB to win 4.5BB) - assuming that we are 3-betting lots because we expect the opener to fold 2/3 of their opens / fold to a (smaller) cbet.

    By taking it to 10BB with marginal hands it suddenly requires a lot more folds from the villain.

    I can't add to play down the streets as Gazza has put everything I'd read on it. T8 or a set and should probably find a fold on the turn unless there are specific reads/info about the villain.

    I'd probably end up calling off and thinking it was the missed straight draw / flush draw / top pair though lol
  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation?:
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation? : Is this always valid, when dabossman notes he has been 3-betting a lot? Unless that is referencing a card rush, a lot of these will be bluff-3-bets and if you are being that aggressive wouldn't it be better to size smaller and create better value for taking it down pre (7BB to win 4.5BB) - assuming that we are 3-betting lots because we expect the opener to fold 2/3 of their opens / fold to a (smaller) cbet. By taking it to 10BB with marginal hands it suddenly requires a lot more folds from the villain. I can't add to play down the streets as Gazza has put everything I'd read on it. T8 or a set and should probably find a fold on the turn unless there are specific reads/info about the villain. I'd probably end up calling off and thinking it was the missed straight draw / flush draw / top pair though lol
    Posted by shakinaces

    I dont think we achieve much by 3 betting small.  We are almost always getting called.  When we do have a big hand we limit the potential pot we can play for.  When we do have a marginal hand (when we are balancing range) we haven't given ourselves much hope of taking down the pot pre.  Instead we've just inflated the pot with a marginal hand when villain is almost always calling.

    Also, as we want to increase the pot a lot when we have big hands, we have to raise the same amount with marginal hands so we don't give the game away.  I just feel we limit our chances of winning big pots by 3 betting small, we encourage other players to call in behind and going to a flop multiway as well.


  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited April 2014
    Jam turn and feel pretty confident about it.

    8 10 raised from UTG?   Unlikely    JJ would be getting it in pre-flop if you have been 3-betting loads.

    Only behind to 9's and 2's.

    Folding is a mistake imo.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited April 2014
    In short shakin, I'd say no to your question.

    The reason we go to say 9xBB is because it still gives us a great price to taking it down pre, while not pricing him in to call with ATC (and bringing other players along too). Also, remember even when we're 3betting light, it shuold never be with the plan 'I'm gonna 3bet light and if he calls I'm done with the hand', so when we're 3betting light it's because we think we can take the pot off him postflop a lot of the time too, in which case we want to take down a bigger pot. Going smaller would force us to go for smaller with all our value hands too and just opens up a world of trouble for us imo.

    If we feel we HAVE to go smaller with our 3bets because of the amount we're 3bet bluffing, then I'd say we're 3bet bluffing too much.
  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation?:
    Jam turn and feel pretty confident about it. 8 10 raised from UTG?   Unlikely    JJ would be getting it in pre-flop if you have been 3-betting loads. Only behind to 9's and 2's. Folding is a mistake imo.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    In a cash game **** yes im raising 108s UTG.  And i think a lot of players would.

    Plus I can easily peel JJ against a serial 3 bettor.  Why would I want to 4 bet/GII and fold out all of your marginal hands/hands I beat?  JJ is just about strong enough to peel and let an aggressive player behind you barrel all his rubbish.

    Unless I knew that this aggressive player behind me was calling a 4 bet with most of his range I wouldnt bother.  If we 4 bet we are inflating the pot OOP with a very vunerable hand and could just be value owning ourselves if villains doesnt call worse.

    I can easily see villain having JJ or 108s


  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation?:
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation? : In a cash game **** yes im raising 108s UTG.  And i think a lot of players would. Plus I can easily peel JJ against a serial 3 bettor.  Why would I want to 4 bet/GII and fold out all of your marginal hands/hands I beat?  JJ is just about strong enough to peel and let an aggressive player behind you barrel all his rubbish. Unless I knew that this aggressive player behind me was calling a 4 bet with most of his range I wouldnt bother.  If we 4 bet we are inflating the pot OOP with a very vunerable hand and could just be value owning ourselves if villains doesnt call worse. I can easily see villain having JJ or 108s
    Posted by gazza127
    Well 108s is only 4 combos. It is definitely not standard to open 810s UTG and then flat a 3-bet OOP with it. (Although as you have alluded to this 3-bet size may affect this.)

    If someone is effectively min 3-betting me all day long **** yes I'm 4-bet/GII JJ for value. It doesn't necessarily fold out all the marginal hands that you beat. We need to adjust our 4-bet value range is someone is 3-betting us constantly.

    Even if we include 108s were losing to 10 combos. I still think there are enough FD + SD + 1pr combos to profitably GII on the turn.  
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited April 2014
    In Response to Re: Should I be mucking it in this situation?:
    In short shakin, I'd say no to your question. The reason we go to say 9xBB is because it still gives us a great price to taking it down pre, while not pricing him in to call with ATC (and bringing other players along too). Also, remember even when we're 3betting light, it shuold never be with the plan 'I'm gonna 3bet light and if he calls I'm done with the hand', so when we're 3betting light it's because we think we can take the pot off him postflop a lot of the time too, in which case we want to take down a bigger pot. Going smaller would force us to go for smaller with all our value hands too and just opens up a world of trouble for us imo. If we feel we HAVE to go smaller with our 3bets because of the amount we're 3bet bluffing, then I'd say we're 3bet bluffing too much.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Are we likely to get lots of calls from later positions though - UTG raise and UTG+1 3-bet would suggest to the rest of the table that there is a good hand there and would restrict what hands can call. Even more so if we figure the UTG open to indicate a strong range that could well 4-bet and leave CO/BU c/f a 3-bet.

    If focusing on more calls from the UTG player, surely this is a good thing if we figure them to call and play OOP - where we believe we can outplay them - or 4-bet strong hands and let us get away cheaply (until / unless we believe the villain has adapated to combat our frequent 3-bet and started 4-betting light).

    Plus with a 3-bet pot and 100BB stacks you'd only be looking at 60% c-bet and turn bet to set yourself up for less than a pot sized river bet to still GII if that is the plan (assuming a 7BB 3-bet), without having to commit more chips pre-flop.

    I suppose this is a similar logic to the evolving fashion of min-raising buttons or BvB to make it more +EV to steal with more frequency - which is effectively what the OP is doing a lot of the time if they are 3-betting as regularly as the post suggests, just happens that this time they actually have it.

    If table positions were different this would probably change - ie if villain was button and we were SB then it would make far less sense to give them the odds to call and see flop in position (plus BB likely to call a wider range if they figure the BU to be stealing / SB re-stealing), so 9-10BB would seem more sensible.

    Just another way of looking at... I've been trying to improve my own approach to 3-betting in the last week or so, which may have resulted in misguided new concepts in my head!
  • dabossmandabossman Member Posts: 213
    edited April 2014
    Thanks for the input guys.

    Regarding the 3 bet sizing, I usually start with 70p and if I think it isn't really working out I will go larger. It is really table dependant and if I am acheiving the same as the larger amount I will stick with it. The main point is I will 3 bet the same regardless of a big pp, suited connectors or a steal. 

    There was no real reason for showing this particular hand it was more the situation. I know if I was in the villians shoes with 8/10, K10, or q10 of hearts I would be wanting the money in on the flop. I also know that if the person 3 betting me has been doing it alot and I didnt have much then I might try a check raise on this type of board aswell to steal it.

    At the time the turn bet had me more convinced it was a flush draw hence the call and on the river, barring a heart I was always calling. Now when I look it does look very valuey.

    Against a decent opponent I usually convince myself they are playing the massive draw strong on the flop and end up calling. It then usually ends up with a set and then I kick myself that I knew it and should of folded. The signs are always there. 

    On connected boards facing the check raise/donk lead is it too nitty to give up straight away? It is probably an easy answer and one that I shouldnt be asking as the answer is obvious but it is really playing tricks on my mind. 





  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,395
    edited April 2014
    Nothing wrong with the 3bet size IMO given the current stack sizes because post-flop we can still build a pot large enough to go all in by the river. If villain is never folding to 3-bets of this size and also not giving up post flop that easily then that's fine by us - we just 3-bet mostly a value range with our 3-bet bluffs being stuff like small-medium SC's. No point 3-betting blocker hands/trash if villain never folds to 3-bets.
    'I'm gonna 3bet light and if he calls I'm done with the hand', so when we're 3betting light it's because we think we can take the pot off him postflop a lot of the time too, in which case we want to take down a bigger pot.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Against the right opponent we can definitely go in with the attitude of 'Im gonna 3bet light and if he calls I'm done with the hand' - The reason we 3bet light against some opponents is because they fold pre-flop to a 3bet so often that it's an outright profitable play. But if they're calling so infrequently it means when they call they have a strongish range - vs these opponents I'll often have a one and done policy or just give up right away - depending on the board.

  • freshfish1freshfish1 Member Posts: 127
    edited April 2014
    Use what notes you have mate to make a decision. FWIW many players will routinely play the same hands the same way at these kind of stakes. Therefore if you've seen them only raise with 2p+ and not semibluff draws then you can consider folding. If you've seen them c/r with tptk type hands and draws then you can consider GII on the flop. If you've seen him do this with air and then barrel turn and river then we can consider calling down as a trap IMO
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