Advice welcome

Matt237

Small bit of background - I never really play cash. Very much an MTT man, just thought i'd give it a shot as i was getting a bit fed up. Just want a bit of advice on the line here. (I don't have any reads whatsoever). Main question is can i ever shove the river? After a lead and a call i thought flatting was best as it was a cheap showdown, could be up against a higher flush and the board had just paired.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Matt237	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£8.65
BB	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£6.42
	Your hole cards	5 4
UTG	Fold
CO	Raise		£0.50	£0.65	£4.83
Button	Call		£0.50	£1.15	£44.99
Matt237	Call		£0.45	£1.60	£8.20
BB	Call		£0.40	£2.00	£6.02
Flop
		10 J 9
Matt237	Check
BB	Check
CO	Bet		£0.50	£2.50	£4.33
Button	Call		£0.50	£3.00	£44.49
Matt237	Call		£0.50	£3.50	£7.70
BB	Call		£0.50	£4.00	£5.52
Turn
		3
Matt237	Check
BB	Check
CO	Bet		£0.90	£4.90	£3.43
Button	Call		£0.90	£5.80	£43.59
Matt237	Call		£0.90	£6.70	£6.80
BB	Call		£0.90	£7.60	£4.62
River
		3
Matt237	Check
BB	Bet		£1.60	£9.20	£3.02
CO	Fold
Button	Call		£1.60	£10.80	£41.99
Matt237

Lambert180

Don't love the call pre from the SB facing a 5x, especially as the opener only has 50xBB.

Suppose we gotta call flop for that price. Again suppose we have to call turn too.

I'd shove river, I think the BB shoves himself if he has any better hand than us, and I think BTN raises any better hand than us cos BB (and you) have so little behind and he won't be expecting you to be strong enough to shove behind very often

Matt237

One point about the aggressor i shouldve added is that in the time i spent at the table his pre flop raises made no sense - he went 6bb utg pre w/ K9 o/s and kept this way so couldn't give much credit. Sort of justifies my call pre a bit more, other players had been picking up so thought it was fine to take this 3 way (expecting bb to get priced in after).

Then again I'm not a cash man

alex1229

I think id be shoving river, What was the result?

shakinaces

The fact that the big blind called all the way then suddenly leads out on the river... that looks so like he must have improved and then chose a bet amount that meant likely to get at least 1 caller, possibly all 3 call / get a raise.

Maybe I'm missing a trick here, but I'd suggest their weakest holding would be a 3x hand (prob A3) that thinks trips is good vs J9/JT/9T hands or has called with suited cards and hit a higher flush (more likely IMO). I suppose if BB is particularly loose then a FH may be an option, but I think the flush is much more likely.

On that basis I'm not sure shoving seems a great idea and I'd definitely flat in this spot.

If the original raiser (CO) was the one betting the river like this I'd feel better about my hand and may give more consideration to shoving. Agree that BU calling down suggests they may well be sat with TP/2P sort of hand and not scared of them calling...

77Chris91

Fold pre. The fact that he opened K9o UTG 6x doesn't justify a call it makes it worse imo. Just peeling anything pretty OOP is not how your gonna profit from these types of players.

As played flop + turn are fine. At these stakes I think BB is gonna feel he is committed with any pair now so just jam river for value.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: Advice welcome:

Fold pre. The fact that he opened K9o UTG 6x doesn't justify a call it makes it worse imo. Just peeling anything pretty OOP is not how your gonna profit from these types of players. As played flop + turn are fine. At these stakes I think BB is gonna feel he is committed with any pair now so just jam river for value.
Posted by 77Chris91

+1 on folding pre. To elaborate why it's worse that he can be wide here - it means our implied odds post-flop aren't as good. If we had a read where his 5x raise meant AA (or big PP) then at least we would know we could get paid if we hit our dream flop. (45x or a straight) - but even then with him being only half stacked we won't get paid often enough to make calling the 50p worthwhile. Whereas if he had K9 on a 367 flop he's just not putting in any more money.

The other thing with this hand is that we can end up getting in trouble on flops that we don't hit by chasing weak flush draws. Yes, the price to call on flop and turn is decievingly good but that doesn't necessarily mean they are correct calls. Our hand has RIO and I'm always wary if more than 1 player comes along because they could be drawing to the same hand but better. 

Now we've got to the river and your poor choices pre/post has led to a difficult spot here where shoving is going to be marginally ev+ at best. 

In short, fold pre, fold flop + turn. Probably just flat river.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Advice welcome:

One point about the aggressor i shouldve added is that in the time i spent at the table his pre flop raises made no sense - he went 6bb utg pre w/ K9 o/s and kept this way so couldn't give much credit. Sort of justifies my call pre a bit more, other players had been picking up so thought it was fine to take this 3 way (expecting bb to get priced in after). Then again I'm not a cash man
Posted by Matt237

I can't agree. The key to these hands is implied odds and against an aggressive short stacked player we are never going to make this hand profitable. Too many times we are going to either miss or hit a small part and get bluffed off. Not only that but we are playing this OOP and without the betting lead so getting value is even harder. 

Stick to playing solid hands against these players. Let them play K9o and when you have KQ it's happy days. 

Matt237

Thanks for the advice. Like i said I'm no cash wiz. Outcome was strange, both players had K10 and JQ respectively. Tricky to fold flop or turn with the price i was getting and the river lead was confusing. Maybe I'll just stick to MTTs, appreciate the replies.

jams88

In Response to Re: Advice welcome:

Thanks for the advice. Like i said I'm no cash wiz. Outcome was strange, both players had K10 and JQ respectively. Tricky to fold flop or turn with the price i was getting and the river lead was confusing. Maybe I'll just stick to MTTs, appreciate the replies.
Posted by Matt237

The points the guys have made about the call pre remain the same in MTT's to. Try to tighten your pre flop calling range when oop and it will improve your all round game

Matt237

Binning this in an mtt, just think its playable this deep 3-4 way in a cash game.

Pre flop is obviously loose but wanted to know whether a shove on the river is the optimum play.

freshfish1

"and the board had just paired"

As the hand has been played out I wouldn't worry too much about this. I would guess at this level most players would have raised somewhere along the line here if they had strong hand such as a set.

The small bets make calling with a wide range of hands here more likely.

What do other people think about leading here? We may be missing out on value if players have the sorts of hands that it turns out they had. Lots of players at this level will call a good sized bet with a TP 2P type hand. FWIW I would sigh call a shove due to stack sizes.