100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot

Lambert180

Is this just a standard flat flop and call it off/shove pretty much any turn card spot?

Not sure how great the call is pre but I'm a sucker for a suited JT and I do have position on the squeezer.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
lJAMESl	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£483.37
chicob	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£72.88
	Your hole cards	J 10
russia	Fold
Lambert180	Raise		£3.00	£4.50	£127.02
BognorBoyz	Fold
JoeySmooth	Call		£3.00	£7.50	£100.00
lJAMESl	Raise		£13.50	£21.00	£469.87
chicob	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£11.00	£32.00	£116.02
JoeySmooth	Fold
Flop
		7 J 3
lJAMESl	Bet		£24.00	£56.00	£445.87

freshfish1

You're miles better than me buddy but fwiw i'll post my suggestion at the expense of looking stupid:)

I think I'm looking to try and GII otf here as we are the right side (just) of flipping against overpairs, in front of AKc, and in trouble vs sets. We are crushing any cbets but if a bad turn card comes that is an overcard and not a club (and villain fires again) our hand doesn't look quite so good imo with just the one card to come.

Guess it comes down to what you know about villains 3bet squeezing range in the SB and what he might do vs you. How he plays the turn in 3bet pots etc... 

liamboi11

calling with j10cc in 3bet pot and we get this flop imo you got raise get it in

CraigSG1

Without flopping the nuts this is as good as it gets. Not deep enough to justify a just call and why would we? We need to put maximum pressure so I would pretty much raise to £60-£65 which is enough to send the message we are committed. I dont think he will ever just call here so you get it all in without the overbet allin and he can still fold hands that beat us such as QJ/KJ/AJ.

77Chris91

Gii on the flop imo. This is a great hand to include in your raising range here. You also avoid any tricky turn decisions if you brick considering the stack sizes.

 

Lambert180

Interesting points/replies all.

It's weird cos I disagree with you all after the event, but still did what you said lol.

It's a bit of an awkward stack to pot ratio so imo I can't raise to any amount smaller than all-in imo because anything less just looks insanely strong. The result fwiw is that I tanked for a bit, jammed and he folded.

Obv as people have said this is pretty much the dream flop for me and I am 100% going with the hand but I'm just thinking about the best way to get max value.

At the time, I jammed and then the second I did it, I hated the jam and wished I'd flatted (I thought that before he acted/folded so not results orientated).

The thing is, I think my TP will be good here quite often but if I jam I'm effectively turning it into a bluff because I won't get called by worse except stuff like AKcc but even that hand is not in the worst shape in the world when it kills my FD.

So I think I should flat to keep in all his bluffs/worse value hands. If he jams turn then I'm calling regardless of what it is, even if it's an A/K, they're pretty good cards for him to bluff anyway and I still have 2pr/trip/flush outs as backup, so I think flatting is best to allow him to have another stab on the turn, and because I have position I know it'll never get checked through on the turn (unless I want it to).

Dunno, that's my thought process anyway.

big_mick12

call flop, raising is bad.

I agree with this:

"The thing is, I think my TP will be good here quite often but if I jam I'm effectively turning it into a bluff because I won't get called by worse except stuff like AKcc but even that hand is not in the worst shape in the world when it kills my FD.

So I think I should flat to keep in all his bluffs/worse value hands. If he jams turn then I'm calling regardless of what it is, even if it's an A/K, they're pretty good cards for him to bluff anyway and I still have 2pr/trip/flush outs as backup, so I think flatting is best to allow him to have another stab on the turn, and because I have position I know it'll never get checked through on the turn (unless I want it to)."

CraigSG1

I don't think raising is bad at all. I agree totally with the thinking but it all depends on what we do with OUR range usually. Do we always just call with our strong pairs/top pairs and draws? What is our current image? 

We can't always play hands the same way. Also, by jamming we can look weaker than we are and get called light sometimes. 

If we had a hand like AcKc or AcQc are we ever just flatting?

Just being devils advocate here btw. I prob just call too as I would do with a lot of my range. If we also float a lot this is a great way to balance that range as this is an excellent flop TO float. 

big_mick12

id flat my entire range

LARSON7

Big mick why?

I really dislike flatting here.

1) there is enough in the middle to win without getting to show down

2) if called atleast we have outs

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot:

Big mick why? I really dislike flatting here. 1) there is enough in the middle to win without getting to show down 2) if called atleast we have outs
Posted by LARSON7

1) Is a pretty terrible attitude towards poker. There's never 'enough' in the middle to win, we wanna win the max from every single pot (especially in cash). Ofc it's up for the debate whether it's true or not, but if flatting wins more longterm, then flatting is better no matter what the size of the pot we can take down.

2) This sounds like you're bluffing and this is the reason why I think flatting is better. If we need outs when called (so we're never gonna called by worse) then why would we want to turn our really strong hand into a bluff. We likely already have the best hand but if we jam, we've thrown that out the window and turned it into a bluff.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot:

Big mick why? I really dislike flatting here. 1) there is enough in the middle to win without getting to show down 2) if called atleast we have outs
Posted by LARSON7

Not disagreeing with this sentiment at all. However, I've found that the lives games are going like this - let's take the pot down NOW - rather than trying to break someone for their whole stack. It's a bleed from internet poker to live poker.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot:

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot : 1) Is a pretty terrible attitude towards poker. There's never 'enough' in the middle to win, we wanna win the max from every single pot (especially in cash). Ofc it's up for the debate whether it's true or not, but if flatting wins more longterm, then flatting is better no matter what the size of the pot we can take down. 2) This sounds like you're bluffing and this is the reason why I think flatting is better. If we need outs when called (so we're never gonna called by worse) then why would we want to turn our really strong hand into a bluff. We likely already have the best hand but if we jam, we've thrown that out the window and turned it into a bluff.
Posted by Lambert180

lol disagree with you buddy that it's a terrible attitude to poker.

What your saying is over complicating things, imo. "If flatting wins more long term" is so subjective and dependant on so many variables, i would say it's impossible to determine "if flatting wins more long term". Imo, jamming is better than flatting. If you flat there is a lot of turn cards we don't want to see, any AKQ (non club).

By jamming you take the initiative and put the decision back on the original raiser.
 
You are talking like your hand is the nuts, we have top pair with an ok kicker and a a decent draw. If the turn is another club, do you think you are getting paid on the rest of your stack? Maybe, mostly not.

By jamming you put the question back on your opponent.

If we are behind and called, atleast we have outs and have got it in while we have decent equity.

If he folds we have won the hand onto the next one.

What part of his range are we missing out on value by not flatting?

LARSON7

Hey BB

Point 1, "theres enough in the middle" AKA

If he folds happy days, if he calls no dramas:)

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot:

In Response to Re: 100NL - Flop TP + FD in 3b Pot : lol disagree with you buddy that it's a terrible attitude to poker. What your saying is over complicating things, imo. "If flatting wins more long term" is so subjective and dependant on so many variables, i would say it's impossible to determine "if flatting wins more long term". Imo, jamming is better than flatting. If you flat there is a lot of turn cards we don't want to see, any AKQ (non club). By jamming you take the initiative and put the decision back on the original raiser.   You are talking like your hand is the nuts, we have top pair with an ok kicker and a a decent draw. If the turn is another club, do you think you are getting paid on the rest of your stack? Maybe, mostly not. By jamming you put the question back on your opponent. If we are behind and called, atleast we have outs and have got it in while we have decent equity. If he folds we have won the hand onto the next one. What part of his range are we missing out on value by not flatting?
Posted by LARSON7

His whole bluffing range perhaps?

--------------------------------------------

I'm with Paul I think. Initial reaction is of course to look to get it in, only natural. Flatting might bring an uncomfortable turn card, but assuming we call flop to call off ANY turn card then that seems the best option to get max value. It's not like LjamesL is gonna struggle to fire a 2nd bullet

Lambert180

It's pretty clear that we're in such a great spot that no matter what we do (apart from folding) is gonna be +EV. No decision we can possibly make is 'bad', but we want to make the most +EV choice not just anything that's +EV

Harry beat me to it, the bit we fold out is his entire bluffing range. Against his range to just squeeze pre and cbet this flop there are TONS of worse hands/bluffs that just snap fold to a shove, but will continue to bluff the turn.

As Harry alludes to, there are no tough decisions, I'd be flatting the turn having already made the decision that I'm not folding to ANY turn card so my decision is easy/I already made it on the flop.

CraigSG1

I still thinks it boils down to what we do with OUR range of hands we could have from strong PP's, draws and good top pairs.

Yes he could be bluffing and we fold them out but he could just as easily have a strong hand (he has 3 bet OOP) that may shut down on a club or J or another broadway card.

Im just saying nothing is cetain. As I said before I am flatting because I would flat with a lot of hands and not just this particular one.

liamboi11

as said above post I be looking raise GII on flop where we have gd equity, but other reasons are if a/k/q cards come on turn that would suck and even though james still barrel them as bluff they are goin be big part of his range which would put us in awkward spot and possibly mean we are behind now.

also if we just flat it`s not just the a/k/q makes the hand awkward if a club comes yeah we made our hand stronger but may totally kill the action and he may shut down and not put another penny in the pot.

but overall I think they are gd arguments for flatting and raising but obviously depending on what you think of your opponents range,aggression etc.

nmipeis

in order for raising combo draws to not be easily exploitable we would need to balance them up with sets, slow played AA and KK if u ever get here with them and bluffs. But since AA,KK and sets all play considerably better as flop calls and bluff raising so shallow with be -EV,  i would have no desire to have any kind of flop raising range. 

not to mention the fact that we lose possible value from james' bluff range in a spot where we dont ever have to fold our own equity on any turn.

EZ call

big_mick12

we keep bluffs in

we are flipping vs james GII range

keeps our flatting range strong

we are IP and are calling every turn therefor realise our equity

Alot of the get it in now approach is to make our decision easier which shouldnt be the reason for doing something. Saying raiseing is bad was an over reaction, its never going to be -EV as someone mentioned before.

I agree with everything in the post above.

F_Ivanovic

My standard raise sizing when someone bets so big in a 3b pot would be a min-r and it can put villain in an annoying spot. What do we do if we have 8c9c or 9cTc here? Or suppose we think villain is FOS fairly often but have a hand that can't just call down with but we also know that villain is capable of barreling turn too. Like suppose we have 5h6h and think villain is c-betting with a wide range of bluffs and then barreling often too - flatting flop would just be burning money in this case but a min-r might work often enough to be profitbale.

In short I think I like having a raising range in spots like this. And they can't all be bluffs/semi-bluffs so I'd probably maybe have AA, some set combos (not many) and then hands like this. I may flat this particular hand and instead raise AcJc/KcJc but if I want to include more bluffs in my range I might include this hand too.