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did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?

craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
edited December 2021 in Strategy
the villian on the buton was constantly limping hands weather they were A10o or Q7o i did with a few pairs do a shove and they all resulted in him folding so i could have jammed but the concern is he will have dominated hands.
craigcu12 Small blind   75.00 75.00 5522.50
bm00886520 Big blind   150.00 225.00 2940.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • J
     
yelvy Call   150.00 375.00 3105.00
bri106 Fold        
BigBluster Fold        
CS Call   150.00 525.00 8010.00
craigcu12 Raise   375.00 900.00 5147.50
bm00886520 Fold        
yelvy Call   300.00 1200.00 2805.00
CS Call   300.00 1500.00 7710.00
Flop
   
  • K
  • 4
  • 10
     
craigcu12 Bet   450.00 1950.00 4697.50
yelvy Fold        
CS Call   450.00 2400.00 7260.00
Turn
   
  • K
     
craigcu12 Bet   900.00 3300.00 3797.50
CS Call   900.00 4200.00 6360.00
River
   
  • 2
     
craigcu12 Check        
CS Bet   2100.00 6300.00 4260.00
craigcu12 Fold        
cheesus Muck        
cheesus Win   4200.00   8460.00
cheesus Return   2100.00 0.00 10560.00
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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2014
    Iso pre is fine.

    Bet flop bigger. Probably c/f turn, if you wanna bet go a bit bigger imo
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    CraigSG1CraigSG1 Member Posts: 1,811
    edited May 2014
    I don't like going against ppl who are better than me but I hate the ISO raise here. It's not big enough and I think it's very rare your going to get folds and as soon as one calls then he other is surely calling so now your playing a bloated pot OOP with a tricky and marginal hand. 

    This hand is a perfect example of what happens a lot. Your always acting first and never sure where you are. 

    At the start of an MTT when everyone's stack is deeper and you want to build a nice pot to win or when it's later on where everyone gets a bit nittier I think would be fine but in mid stages your often playing full streets and can easily lose half your stack. 

    C/o or button then fine, here just easier to complete and take your pot odds. I think it's about giving yourself as many easy decisions as possible. Playing draws OOP is one if the trickiest things to do. 

    As played, betting turn isn't great as nothing has changed that will make him give up a hand he called with on the flop and may even have strengthened it. 
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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2014
    Yeah fair point. I meant the act of iso'ing pre was fine, but yeah in terms of sizing, I'd go more like 525 ish.

    Flatting isn't bad either like cos it's a good hand multiway, but I like to punish limpers, take the initiative and avoid someone else behind doing the squeezing/iso'ing and then me having to limp/fold or limp/call and have very little idea of their range.
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited May 2014
    i'm thinking now until an MTT approaches a bubble, if im sitting in the blinds or UTG+1 is it worth me raising anything  that isn't AA KK QQ JJ?
    even AK i'm beginning to question weather or not it's worth a raise when OOP.
    the truth is i could see this player holding a pair as he has been limping in hands as strong as AJ.
    if the king or A doesn't come on the flop i'm struggling to think of how i can get out not that i have put so much in the pot.
    OkayPokay Small blind   50.00 50.00 6067.50
    craigcu12 Big blind   100.00 150.00 5515.00
      Your hole cards
    • A
    • K
    		     
    limp Raise   200.00 350.00 3802.50
    cullum Fold        
    x Call   200.00 550.00 4355.00
    albania Fold        
    OkayPokay Call   150.00 700.00 5917.50
    craigcu12 Raise   500.00 1200.00 5015.00
    whogoes Call   400.00 1600.00 3402.50
    x Call   400.00 2000.00 3955.00
    OkayPokay Fold        
    Flop
       
    • 3
    • 8
    • 7
    		     
    craigcu12 Check        
    limp Check        
    x Check        
    Turn
       
    • 8
    		     
    craigcu12 Bet   500.00 2500.00 4515.00
    limp Call   500.00 3000.00 2902.50
    x Fold        
    River
       
    • 7
    		     
    craigcu12 Check        
    limp Bet   1500.00 4500.00 1402.50
    craigcu12 Fold        
    limp Muck        
    limp Win   3000.00   4402.50
    limp Return   1500.00 0.00 5902.5
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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2014
    Again your raise is too small. He didn't limp either, he made it 200 @ 50/100. Either flat and play postflop or 3bet to more like 750 imo.

    As played I wouldn't even bother with the turn bet, there's a half decent chance we still have the best hand, and if we don't he's not gonna fold to that bet. If I was him I wouldn't even fold 22 to that bet cos it looks like you have exactly what you do have.
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    Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited May 2014
    Craig if you're going to ISO you have to do it bigger. You're also out of position aswell - So i would make it 550-600. As played you need to bet that flop bigger and shutdown on that horrible turn - doesn't change anything really but could sometimes have us drawing dead.

    Again in the 2nd hand - Flat or Raise bigger pre to 700ish. Bet flop 
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited May 2014
    this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB.

    i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A

    i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops.

    paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.
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    Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited May 2014
    Then flat pre in multiway pots
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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB. i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops. paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.
    Posted by craigcu12
    This is just results orientated thinking from recent situations you've been in imo. I bet they don't fold the A high flop when they've called pre with A2 through to AQ which is great news for us when we have AK. And I bet they don't fold the K high flop with KQ/KJ/KT/K9 etc which is also great when we have AK.

    AK is a great hand, it dominates/crushes SO many hands that people like to call with pre (all Ax and all Kx), and it's very very rarely ever in terrible shape... even against KK it's got about 30% equity IIRC. Just the same as AA though, just because it's a great hand doesn't mean it's going to win every time and doesn't mean you can't just fold sometimes.

    AK is easily a winning hand to raise with long term so if you're losing with it, it's down to your postflop or preflop play with it OR more likely, you are winning with AK long term, you're just going through a period of your bluffs not working when you miss, losing flips with it, not getting action when you do hit etc but that's variance for ya.


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    CraigSG1CraigSG1 Member Posts: 1,811
    edited May 2014
    Playing ANY hand OOP is tricky. Just that AK sticks out in your mind as when you get dealt it (like any premium hand) you expect to win with it. 

    A theme developing is that you simply don't raise enough when OOP. Dont get into the mentality of automatically thinking,I have X hand here so should raise. You need to remember to factor in your opponents and your stack and theirs. Not only do you raise more when more ppl are in the pot but then factor in your position and what bet size you think stands the best chance to either get folds or get one caller. 

    I've said this before but you have to think of what play gives you the easiest decisions. Here raising bigger and taking it down or getting one caller is far easier than betting small and probably getting multiple callers. Even if you hit your A or K your still never sure! 
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    77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited May 2014
    As others have said raise bigger pre...

    Flop - Have to c/f. I think someone suggested betting flop but that would be awful. AhKx would be sooo much better to bet flop with.

    Turn - No point in betting. It's a c/c or a c/f.

    River - As played c/c imo.
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    bet72offbet72off Member Posts: 28
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    this is why i'm now thinking is it even worth raising AK in the SB and BB. i'm going to be left out of position i'm sure they will fold if the flop showed an A i've lost too many chips in the past when i've been too aggro with it on missed flops. paul the reason i used the world limp to hide this players name is he was frequently limping, so this was a different way of wanting to see the pot as he choose to raise rather than limp.
    Posted by craigcu12
    You are right to question how you play AK if it's not profitable. This is very opponent dependent. And the standard way to play AK doesn't always work at the tables I play at.

    I have had a problem with this. If you are playing so tight that AK is a large part of your range when you raise, then players can adapt appropriately. Either they fold all their weaker aces which they normally overplay, or play random two cards against you and outplay you post flop. If you barrel all the way then they will call with 96 when they pair their 6. They can assume you pair when an A or K comes. Or if you c-bet just once they can just float you. These are legitimate counters to your play. I think timing tells sometimes give away weakness as well.

    It seems rare to me that I am betting top pair top kicker and being called down all the way. Once I have signalled my hand people just fold when behind on the flop.

    The problem either way is the play is too predicatable and always raising or reraising with AK when you are playing a narrow range is not profitable against some players. Theoretically, the play needs to be balanced. But if people are calling too much, then you don't get enough fold equity to bluff.  However you may need to occasionally play other cards to mix up your play.

    If people always assume you have AK when you raise, then exploit that until they adapt. If someone is putting me on AK and calling me down with a very wide range, then sometimes I play QJ or some other hand but represent AK. I can get them to fold if an A or K comes, and I'm usually winning if the flop comes Q high or J high. That covers most flops.

    If you are getting a lot of callers when you raise, then stick to raising and only continue when you hit. You have to stick to value if people are not respecting your bets.

    If you only play AA, KK, QQ then that is exploitable too by folding against you most of the time. Whether you do this depends on your opponents, and whether they give you action anyway.

    Another thing to consider is that there are 16 combinations of AK to 18 combinations of AA,KK,QQ. If people are calling you down when you continue with AK, they may be right half the time. The AK bluffs balance your legitimate bets. But maybe you do this too often. Suppose you only raise and barrel your AK half the time, then their calls are a lot less correct, and they either have to fold or are paying you off a lot more often. If they always call you down anyway then never bluffing may be correct.
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    Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    As others have said raise bigger pre... Flop - Have to c/f. I think someone suggested betting flop but that would be awful. AhKx would be sooo much better to bet flop with. Turn - No point in betting. It's a c/c or a c/f. River - As played c/c imo.
    Posted by 77Chris91
    Of course it's better to bet the flop when you have 2 pair as opposed to AK high lol, but gone into the hand with the initiative and we can always fire again if people want to chase the FD. Tough to play oop but i dont mind firing a couple of times in this hand.
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited May 2014
    things look to have improved with AK now and here were some of my hands from thursdays BH
    karlluke Small blind   20.00 20.00 2257.50
    BIPS Big blind   40.00 60.00 1782.50
      Your hole cards
    • K
    • A
    		     
    bozzyboy07 Fold        
      Raise   80.00 140.00 2560.00
    LACE118 Fold        
    craigcu12 Raise   240.00 380.00 1795.00
    karlluke Fold        
    BIPS Fold        
      Call   160.00 540.00 2400.00
    Flop
       
    • 10
    • 7
    • 6
    		     
      Check        
    craigcu12 Bet   400.00 940.00 1395.00
      Call   400.00 1340.00 2000.00
    Turn
       
    • 7
    		     
      Check        
    craigcu12 Check        
    River
       
    • K
    		     
      Check        
    craigcu12 Check        
      Show
    • 5
    • 6
    		     
    craigcu12 Show
    • K
    • A
    		     
    craigcu12 Win Two Pairs, Kings and 7s 1340.00   2735.0
    bozzyboy07 Small blind   10.00 10.00 2250.00
    ssbssb Big blind   20.00 30.00 1705.00
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • A
    		     
    LACE118 Fold        
    craigcu12 Raise   60.00 90.00 1560.00
      Call   60.00 150.00 2270.00
    BIPS Call   60.00 210.00 2305.00
    bozzyboy07 Fold        
    ssbssb Fold        
    Flop
       
    • K
    • 2
    • 5
    		     
    craigcu12 Bet   160.00 370.00 1400.00
      Call   160.00 530.00 2110.00
    BIPS Fold        
    Turn
       
    • K
    		     
    craigcu12 Bet   530.00 1060.00 870.00
      Fold        
    craigcu12 Muck        
    craigcu12 Win   530.00   1400.00
    craigcu12 Return   530.00 0.00 1930.00
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    77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min? : Of course it's better to bet the flop when you have 2 pair as opposed to AK high lol, but gone into the hand with the initiative and we can always fire again if people want to chase the FD. Tough to play oop but i dont mind firing a couple of times in this hand.
    Posted by Matt237
    Were OOP in a 3 way pot. This flop strengthens the villains ranges and weakens ours. If your barrelling here with this combo of AK your gonna have waaay to many bluff's in your range.

    C-betting this flop is burning money... 

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    Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min? : Were OOP in a 3 way pot. This flop strengthens the villains ranges and weakens ours. If your barrelling here with this combo of AK your gonna have waaay to many bluff's in your range. C-betting this flop is burning money... 
    Posted by 77Chris91
    Yeah sorry shutdown here, was on about if you had raised bigger pre and getting 1 caller at most
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    Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,479
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    i'm thinking now until an MTT approaches a bubble, if im sitting in the blinds or UTG+1 is it worth me raising anything  that isn't AA KK QQ JJ? even AK i'm beginning to question weather or not it's worth a raise when OOP. the truth is i could see this player holding a pair as he has been limping in hands as strong as AJ. if the king or A doesn't come on the flop i'm struggling to think of how i can get out not that i have put so much in the pot. OkayPokay Small blind   50.00 50.00 6067.50 craigcu12 Big blind   100.00 150.00 5515.00   Your hole cards A K       limp Raise   200.00 350.00 3802.50 cullum Fold         x Call   200.00 550.00 4355.00 albania Fold         OkayPokay Call   150.00 700.00 5917.50 craigcu12 Raise   500.00 1200.00 5015.00 whogoes Call   400.00 1600.00 3402.50 x Call   400.00 2000.00 3955.00 OkayPokay Fold         Flop     3 8 7       craigcu12 Check         limp Check         x Check         Turn     8       craigcu12 Bet   500.00 2500.00 4515.00 limp Call   500.00 3000.00 2902.50 x Fold         River     7       craigcu12 Check         limp Bet   1500.00 4500.00 1402.50 craigcu12 Fold         limp Muck         limp Win   3000.00   4402.50 limp Return   1500.00 0.00 5902.5
    Posted by craigcu12
    I think it's generally the opposite. In my opinion approaching the bubble is the absolute best time to be raising. People like cashing and usually tighten up at this time in a tourney
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    BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited May 2014
    In Response to Re: did i play this right or do i keep my losses to a min?:
    Iso pre is fine. Bet flop bigger. Probably c/f turn, if you wanna bet go a bit bigger imo
    Posted by Lambert180
    Probably the first post ever on this forum that I have agreed with entirely. Sir, I wouldn't have phrased it differently myself.

    Lambert -you must be wrong!


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