Limping with JJ

bet72off

Limping with jacks sometimes works...sometimes.

Nice spot here. 3 way all in on flop with only 1 out against me.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
horne03	Small blind		30.00	30.00	5270.00
oynutter	Big blind		60.00	90.00	1470.00
	Your hole cards	J J
Jam667	Call		60.00	150.00	3745.00
bet72off	Call		60.00	210.00	13900.00
sillymid	Raise		240.00	450.00	5720.00
wafu	Fold
horne03	Fold
oynutter	Fold
Jam667	Call		180.00	630.00	3565.00
bet72off	Raise		960.00	1590.00	12940.00
sillymid	Call		780.00	2370.00	4940.00
Jam667	Call		780.00	3150.00	2785.00
Flop
		A J 8
Jam667	All-in		2785.00	5935.00	0.00
bet72off	Call		2785.00	8720.00	10155.00
sillymid	All-in		4940.00	13660.00	0.00
bet72off	Call		2155.00	15815.00	8000.00
Jam667	Show	A K
bet72off	Show	J J
sillymid	Show	A J
Turn
		5
River
		A
sillymid	Win	Full House, Aces and Jacks	15815.00		15815.00

Oh well.

Nuggy962

I never limp JJ

Good hand pre flop not so great post flop - unless can hit a set.....

You was unlucky here but I still raise pre - maybe then we get rid of AJ pre if AK is agresssive too

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

I never limp JJ Good hand pre flop not so great post flop - unless can hit a set..... You was unlucky here but I still raise pre - maybe then we get rid of AJ pre if AK is agresssive too
Posted by Nuggy962

I limp raised pre because it was reasonably likely I would get raised and to mix up my play. If anyone gets too aggressive I'm probably folding.

Dan Harrington seems to advocate always raising JJ after a limper, but advocates a limp with AA,KK,QQ if a raise behind if fairly likely. He also advocates limping JJ in early position some of the time.

hhyftrftdr

Over limp re-raise with JJ.....really?

Matt237

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

Over limp re-raise with JJ.....really?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Brilliant ain't it :-)

sillymid

If there are two limpers, then I happy to rasie pre-flop with AJ. Looking back, I didn't realise how big the limp/raise was at the time. Once I hit two pairs, then I am going to get it all in. OK I got lucky.

Any thoughts on whether I should have called that limp/raise?

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

If there are two limpers, then I happy to rasie pre-flop with AJ. Looking back, I didn't realise how big the limp/raise was at the time. Once I hit two pairs, then I am going to get it all in. OK I got lucky. Any thoughts on whether I should have called that limp/raise?
Posted by sillymid

hes turned his hand face up like a player whos been on holiday since 1999 and never played poker since, allways gonna have AJ crushed pre so its a pretty easy fold.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : I limp raised pre because it was reasonably likely I would get raised and to mix up my play. If anyone gets too aggressive I'm probably folding. Dan Harrington seems to advocate always raising JJ after a limper, but advocates a limp with AA,KK,QQ if a raise behind if fairly likely. He also advocates limping JJ in early position some of the time.
Posted by bet72off

When was the book written?

alex1229

I hate limpers

That pre flop re raise is just horrible, shouts out AA/KK to me gives ur hand strength away, you deserved to lose, just horrible viewing:)

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : When was the book written?
Posted by Jac35

2010.

[Edit: correction: 2004]

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

I hate limpers That pre flop re raise is just horrible, shouts out AA/KK to me gives ur hand strength away, you deserved to lose, just horrible viewing:)
Posted by alex1229

It seemed to make sense given the amount of action at the table. I didn't think anyone was that strong. The original raise doesn't show much strength. Neither does the call. I want people to fold higher cards, so I don't care if my hand strength is given away. Well that's my logic; I don't understand why it's horrible.

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : hes turned his hand face up like a player whos been on holiday since 1999 and never played poker since, allways gonna have AJ crushed pre so its a pretty easy fold.
Posted by THEROCK573

I don't understand how it turns my hand face up, because the play can always be balanced. In fact I am very rarely doing this with JJ, and I am doing it to represent a stronger hand. If I was sure I would get folds, then I could make the play with even weaker hands. But I would only want to do that against players like you who are capable of folding.

I admit I am representing strength. Is there something wrong with that? Is that what I missed when I was on holiday, that I shouldn't make big bets any more? What have I missed since 1999?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : I don't understand how it turns my hand face up, because the play can always be balanced. In fact I am very rarely doing this with JJ, and I am doing it to represent a stronger hand. If I was sure I would get folds, then I could make the play with even weaker hands. But I would only want to do that against players like you who are capable of folding. I admit I am representing strength. Is there something wrong with that? Is that what I missed when I was on holiday, that I shouldn't make big bets any more? What have I missed since 1999?
Posted by bet72off

You have JJ, you don't need to rep strength when you have one of the strongest starting hands going. When you over limp re-raise with them, you are pretty much folding out any airballs and a load of cards that are in bad shape vs JJ, and getting action from hands that have JJ in average or really poor shape.

Your logic seems flawed from what I've seen you post, if I'm being honest.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : It seemed to make sense given the amount of action at the table. I didn't think anyone was that strong. The original raise doesn't show much strength. Neither does the call. I want people to fold higher cards, so I don't care if my hand strength is given away. Well that's my logic; I don't understand why it's horrible.
Posted by bet72off

So you only want action from QQ+ when we have JJ yeah? How doesn't the original raiser show strength? They've raised 2 limpers....

In the space of 2 moves, you've gone from one end of the spectrum to the other; overlimp with JJ which is quite weak, followed by r/r which is very strong, turns our hand somewhat face up and probably means we are overvaluing our hand now. As when we make this move, as I said above, generally we are folding out everything we beat, and getting action exclusively from hands that fare pretty well vs JJ.

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : I don't understand how it turns my hand face up, because the play can always be balanced. In fact I am very rarely doing this with JJ, and I am doing it to represent a stronger hand. If I was sure I would get folds, then I could make the play with even weaker hands. But I would only want to do that against players like you who are capable of folding. I admit I am representing strength. Is there something wrong with that? Is that what I missed when I was on holiday, that I shouldn't make big bets any more? What have I missed since 1999?
Posted by bet72off

hhyftrftdr has hit the nail on the head with his reply, it actually tilts me how bad this play is in general but if you think its fine then thats up to you each to there own.

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : So you only want action from QQ+ when we have JJ yeah? How doesn't the original raiser show strength? They've raised 2 limpers.... In the space of 2 moves, you've gone from one end of the spectrum to the other; overlimp with JJ which is quite weak, followed by r/r which is very strong, turns our hand somewhat face up and probably means we are overvaluing our hand now. As when we make this move, as I said above, generally we are folding out everything we beat, and getting action exclusively from hands that fare pretty well vs JJ.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

The original raiser was raising limpers a lot, so I didn't think the play is that strong. There was a lot of postflop action in general on the table, so I figured I wouldn't only get action from QQ+. If someone does have QQ+, then I am hoping for a reraise, at which point I fold.

I think however I am up against a lot of overcards, that I want to fold out.  I think my play makes my hand easier to play post-flop. If I am up against overcards, then continuing on the flop when no overs come make my play more correct. I also want the overcards to fold as they have good equity against me. If I play against an airball hand, and there are overcards on the flop, how do I tell if my hand is good? I would rather take the pot now.

Is that my mistake? Should I be braver and see a flop and be prepared to just find out where I am from the betting?

Yes, I have gone from under to over representing my hand. What is wrong with misrepresenting my hand? Surely my profit comes from players playing incorrectly against me, which is much more likely if my hand is misrepresented.

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : hhyftrftdr  has hit the nail on the head with his reply, it actually tilts me how bad this play is in general but if you think its fine then thats up to you each to there own.
Posted by THEROCK573

The assertion was that the play would only get action from QQ+, but that clearly was not the case in this instance.

I think it depends on the table. I am used to playing freerolls and very low buy-in tournaments, and I seem to do OK in those. I have a lot of trouble bigger tournaments and maybe I am not just not adjusting for those. I am used to playing players as bad as myself.

If my A-game tilts you then you should stay away from me at the tables for your own safety. I often play much worse...

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : The assertion was that the play would only get action from QQ+, but that clearly was not the case in this instance. I think it depends on the table. I am used to playing freerolls and very low buy-in tournaments, and I seem to do OK in those. I have a lot of trouble bigger tournaments and maybe I am not just not adjusting for those. I am used to playing players as bad as myself. If my A-game tilts you then you should stay away from me at the tables for your own safety. I often play much worse...
Posted by bet72off

wouldnt tilt my play at the table against you, i see this sort of stuff all the time, i just look and the hand and want to vomit its that bad. you obviously think its fine cos uve read a book published 8 years ago thats says it is. ok fine i have nothing more to say then, u play whats most profitable for u and il play how its most profitable form me!!!

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : The original raiser was raising limpers a lot, so I didn't think the play is that strong. There was a lot of postflop action in general on the table, so I figured I wouldn't only get action from QQ+. If someone does have QQ+, then I am hoping for a reraise, at which point I fold. I think however I am up against a lot of overcards, that I want to fold out.  I think my play makes my hand easier to play post-flop. If I am up against overcards, then continuing on the flop when no overs come make my play more correct. I also want the overcards to fold as they have good equity against me. If I play against an airball hand, and there are overcards on the flop, how do I tell if my hand is good? I would rather take the pot now. Is that my mistake? Should I be braver and see a flop and be prepared to just find out where I am from the betting? Yes, I have gone from under to over representing my hand. What is wrong with misrepresenting my hand? Surely my profit comes from players playing incorrectly against me, which is much more likely if my hand is misrepresented.
Posted by bet72off

I can only deduce from all this that you're uncomfortable playing mid-high PP's post flop, probably even more so out of position.

Just because we have JJ on a Kxx board doesn't mean we have to meekly check fold, equally just because we have JJ on a 2 3 9 board doesn't mean we have to get every single chip in. We should be looking at our opponents, their image and range, our perceived image and range, bet sizing, any reads/history....put it all in a big thought process melting pot, and that should allow us to make logical decisions when facing a key hand. Sometimes we'll get it wrong. Of course there will be times when we pay them off, or get bluffed off the best hand. But this is normal, it's poker. As long as we make more correct decisions over time than 'incorrect' play, we should reap the rewards.

In this hand, we don't know that the original raiser has been iso raising limpers a lot. Fair enough. If anything, this would generally encourage me to keep up the sneaky play with JJ. Because when we then re-raise, as I've said before but can't stress enough, we fold out all their marginal hands, pretty much every pocket pair below JJ, some random junk etc etc.....so that means we generally (not always gonna be the case of course, but thinking long term....) are getting action from hands that crush us or have very good equity. So now we're playing a bloated pot, out of position, vs 2 people, both of which have very narrowed ranges that are usually gonna be in ok to great shape vs JJ.

I think you're final point is way off. With this play, you are making it easier for people to play against you...ie people will make less mistakes vs you when you do this. You are narrowing your range right down, so someone trying to pinch with 78s can make an easy fold, someone iso raising with 99 can make an easy fold. Someone iso raising with KK however is not gonna be scared off, and thus this is where you get the action, from a hand that crushes us.

I genuinely wish you well.

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : I can only deduce from all this that you're uncomfortable playing mid-high PP's post flop, probably even more so out of position. Just because we have JJ on a Kxx board doesn't mean we have to meekly check fold, equally just because we have JJ on a 2 3 9 board doesn't mean we have to get every single chip in. We should be looking at our opponents, their image and range, our perceived image and range, bet sizing, any reads/history....put it all in a big thought process melting pot, and that should allow us to make logical decisions when facing a key hand. Sometimes we'll get it wrong. Of course there will be times when we pay them off, or get bluffed off the best hand. But this is normal, it's poker. As long as we make more correct decisions over time than 'incorrect' play, we should reap the rewards. In this hand, we don't know that the original raiser has been iso raising limpers a lot. Fair enough. If anything, this would generally encourage me to keep up the sneaky play with JJ. Because when we then re-raise, as I've said before but can't stress enough, we fold out all their marginal hands, pretty much every pocket pair below JJ, some random junk etc etc.....so that means we generally (not always gonna be the case of course, but thinking long term....) are getting action from hands that crush us or have very good equity. So now we're playing a bloated pot, out of position, vs 2 people, both of which have very narrowed ranges that are usually gonna be in ok to great shape vs JJ. I think you're final point is way off. With this play, you are making it easier for people to play against you...ie people will make less mistakes vs you when you do this. You are narrowing your range right down, so someone trying to pinch with 78s can make an easy fold, someone iso raising with 99 can make an easy fold. Someone iso raising with KK however is not gonna be scared off, and thus this is where you get the action, from a hand that crushes us. I genuinely wish you well.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I was partly doing this because I thought there was far too much calling going on, but I take the point that I could still be folding out weaker hands that I am crushing.

I do think that in the games I am used to, reraises are not respected enough, so can be done for value a lot more often. This is maybe where I need to make more adjustments for more sensible games.

bet72off

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ:

In Response to Re: Limping with JJ : wouldnt tilt my play at the table against you, i see this sort of stuff all the time, i just look and the hand and want to vomit its that bad. you obviously think its fine cos uve read a book published 8 years ago thats says it is. ok fine i have nothing more to say then, u play whats most profitable for u and il play how its most profitable form me!!!
Posted by THEROCK573

No, the book didn't say it was fine. It said it was OK with QQ+ if a raise behind was fairly likely.

I think what is profitable for me, wouldn't work for you because you play at different stakes. It doesn't work for me when I move up, so I am interested in your opinions.

Here's an example. First hand of tournament: UTG goes all-in, UTG+1 calls. You are next to act and have 88. I would think about calling here on the basis they might have only 2 overcards between them or less. The play might be dubious for me, but would be terrible for you.