Optimal play for flush draws 200BB deep

shakinaces

I don't think I've really adjusted to playing stacks this deep and need a lot of work before spending too much more on the master cash tables!

My 3-bet on the flop was too small but I was having connection issues and nearly timed out so went with the amount I'd moved the slider too as opposed to folding / timing out.

Should I be giving more thought to slowing down with draws when this deep - ie call the flop raise and possibly c/c turn or c/f turn (depending on size of bet).  Or is it still a reasonable play to GII on the flop with this draw?

As you can see from holding, villain was playing a pretty wide range pre but hadn't been getting too tied to flops post. I'd not seen them at these levels before.  Wouldn't have ruled out 63 but would also include A3, sets, 2pr and possibly overpairs in range - ie overcards may not play unless I hit running cards.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Shippy1	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£26.78
CATCH-22	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£35.53
	Your hole cards	K A
supercrazy	Fold
shakinaces	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.70
villain	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£54.20
Shippy1	Call		£0.25	£1.00	£26.53
CATCH-22	Call		£0.20	£1.20	£35.33
Flop
		4 2 5
Shippy1	Check
CATCH-22	Check
shakinaces	Bet		£0.80	£2.00	£18.90
villain	Raise		£2.20	£4.20	£52.00
Shippy1	Fold
CATCH-22	Fold
shakinaces	Raise		£3.70	£7.90	£15.20
villain	All-in		£52.00	£59.90	£0.00
shakinaces	All-in		£15.20	£75.10	£0.00
villain	Unmatched bet		£34.50	£40.60	£34.50
shakinaces	Show	K A
villain	Show	3 6
Turn
		4
River
		9
villain	Win	Straight to the 6	£39.20		£73.70

CraigSG1

Wow! Sick call with 63o pre!!

Anyways. As a general rule when we are this deep it affords us more room to just call in these sorts of situations. I wouldn't 3 bet on the flop for exactly this reason. If you get four bet/put all in you have to fold and miss out on such a good hand (baring the 63 hand he has but really he shouldn't have this) as we have so much equity against most hands. 

Anything you get all in with on the flop when this deep is rarely going to be anything else but the nuts. 

ACES925

Lol craig, we are never ever ever ever 3b/folding flop.

He can show up with combo draws + 99-QQ which we are ahead of + he can raise/fold 5x 66-88 and we net 29bb with A high.

Flatting flop means we're lost on so many turns.

Hands fine.

CraigSG1

So your fine calling an over bet allin on flop with A high 200BB deep? I can't see where we make money (at this level) when 90%+ of the time they are going to have the nuts/ near nuts/ drawing thinner than we think (ie set/2 pr).  

100BB deep then we want to get all in as his range is wider but 200+ then his range is narrower. 

ACES925

I just explained to you how we make money. You cant everrrrr justify 3b/folding overs + gutter + nfd. It really would be criminal and counter intuitive. The guys not going to have the nuts anywhere near as often as ur making out especially at this level.

In position there's a good argument for calling the raise (and it prob is better) but oop we have to fold too many turns if he bets big enough.

alex1229

Im fine getting it all in on the flop, especially at those stakes its a monster flop

freshfish1

Craig said: "Anything you get all in with on the flop when this deep is rarely going to be anything else but the nuts."

This is true at NL20 200BB deep. Even the wackiest of villians don't shove pair+draw combos here and I have to disagree with 99-QQ. Sure he might call with those hands but vs a 3b otf and still shoving over - range is sets and str8's (albeit a fishy call pre). IMO

Although calling is giving up position and looks a bit drawy we still have 180Bigs behind. We do have options ott whether we hit a club or not and if he has a big hand (which is possible from his actions) and the club comes that doesn't pair the board we can gii with the nuts.

100BB as Craig said it's going in all day, every day. But if we make this play all the time 200BB deep we will lose money over time as we are in more trouble vs his shoving ranges IMO.

ACES925

So you think hes not bad enough to cram Queens on the flop, but hes bad enough to stick another 180bigs in on the turn when we flat flop and raise on a club turn?

Your making too many assumptions, and yes ppl do get it in with worse hands at every stake especially 10nl lol

Your not taking into consideration how much we lose when we flat flop and brick turn, and then if we call turn and brick river.

Your not taking into consideration how much we gain when he folds to our flop 3bet which is going to happen fairly often and how much we lose if we 3b and fold (this is the worst play by a long shot)

77Chris91

Considering we block a lot of the semi bluffs villain would play this way I think flatting flop is fine. We get to realise our equity in the hand regardless because were not folding the turn...

ACES925

If we flat flop brick turn and he pots it obv we have to fold.

Too many of you are looking at the hand from a results POV, we cant control what he does, so we need to work on the basis that we don't know he crams it on the flop.

Your forgetting we can 3b flop, he calls and folds turn = we make money. We 3b flop and he folds = we make money. We  3b flop, he calls we bet bet for value and he calls or bet bet as a bluff and he folds, both times we make money.

So, take all arguments for 3betting and all arguments for flatting and compare them. Don't compare them too what happens in either situation if he jams.

Shakin from now on post your HH without results, and without his 4b. Just post flop action after he raises and ask "what should I do here?"

77Chris91

In Response to Re: Optimal play for flush draws 200BB deep:

If we flat flop brick turn and he pots it obv we have to fold. Too many of you are looking at the hand from a results POV, we cant control what he does, so we need to work on the basis that we don't know he crams it on the flop. Your forgetting we can 3b flop, he calls and folds turn = we make money. We 3b flop and he folds = we make money. We  3b flop, he calls we bet bet for value and he calls or bet bet as a bluff and he folds, both times we make money. So, take all arguments for 3betting and all arguments for flatting and compare them. Don't compare them too what happens in either situation if he jams. Shakin from now on post your HH without results, and without his 4b. Just post flop action after he raises and ask "what should I do here?"
Posted by ACES925

Well we don't... Against the range your giving villain in your previous posts were gonna have 33% equity + implied odds vs this guy.

My argument for flatting has nothing to do with the result. Imo when we block all Axcc and all Kxcc when villain raises this flop his range is going to contain a lot of 2PR/Sets/Straights/CD's. Against a villain like this I don't mind just exploitatively calling with draws and GII the money when we hit.

Obviously 3-betting the flop is never gonna be incorrect here. Imo though flatting is not as lol as your making out considering were 200bb deep.

F_Ivanovic

+1 with everything Chris has said. Majority of players that raise the flop here are not doing so to fold to ever fold to a 3b (and usually it's a hand they will be happy to GII) - so by 3-betting we are basically getting it in on the flop against a range that has us crushed (we're basically just drawing to a flush) If we thought villain was capable of raising flop light then 3-betting flop becomes absolutely fine. However, your 3-bet sizing is far too small here.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Optimal play for flush draws 200BB deep:

+1 with everything Chris has said. Majority of players that raise the flop here are not doing so to fold to ever fold to a 3b (and usually it's a hand they will be happy to GII) - so by 3-betting we are basically getting it in on the flop against a range that has us crushed (we're basically just drawing to a flush) If we thought villain was capable of raising flop light then 3-betting flop becomes absolutely fine. However, your 3-bet sizing is far too small here.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Basically my point. Anything we get allin here so deep is going to have us crushed the majority of the time. We will rarely have all our percieved outs (over cards, str and FDs). Being deep we can play through the streets easier and realise the equity of our hand more. 

shakinaces

So the sort of consensus is that it's ok to call here as opposed to 3-bet and then call most turn bets (up to a pot-sized bet) on the basis that we're deep enough to have the implied odds of getting stacks if I hit the flush on the river?