The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread..............EDIT: I WON'T

waller02

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

Good luck with this mate... I'll come to the funeral and throw in some chips for the journey ahead.!!!  
Posted by devonfish5

Cheers dev, how are you? Long time no speak!

waller02

Just finished a 90min session 4 tabling.

Had to stop because my laptop just froze, it really can't handle 4 tables for long before it starts overheating. I'm going to try another system restore as Chris suggested because at the time the laptop froze I was in the middle of a hand where I'm pretty sure I was ahead and I had already invested over a quid, only to get timed out!!

Anyway it was a winning session which I will always take, but I still have a long way to go before I can call myself a competent cash player. I feel I may be too spewy in certain spots!!

Here is a hand from earlier: The oppo is one of the good regs and had been raising pre a lot! I call the flop because he doesn't have to have the ace and I wanted to reassess on the turn. Then turn gives me 2 pair....should I be raising here?? Is the river a call, raise or even fold?? Thoughts on the hand in general please.

PearllJosh	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.12
supercrazy	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£12.74
	Your hole cards	8 J
	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£13.26
Carnage	Fold
waller02	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£9.70
CraigSG1	Fold
PearllJosh	Fold
supercrazy	Fold
Flop
		A 8 4
	Bet		£0.38	£1.13	£12.88
waller02	Call		£0.38	£1.51	£9.32
Turn
		J
	Bet		£0.76	£2.27	£12.12
waller02	Call		£0.76	£3.03	£8.56
River
		9
	Bet		£2.27	£5.30	£9.85
waller02	Call		£2.27	£7.57	£6.29
	Show	10 Q
waller02	Muck	8 J
	Win	Straight to the Queen	£7.00		£16.85

Anyway that was my biggest losing hand of the session.

Session Profit/loss: +£11.12
Total Profit/loss: -£4.30

Matt237

The hand on page 1 is a check behind yeah.

One above is - Call/Fold >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raise

waller02

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

The hand on page 1 is a check behind yeah. One above is - Call/Fold /> />>>>>>>>>>>>> Raise
Posted by Matt237

Cheers, how about on the turn though? Should I be raising?

And ty craig........I will be posting hands from each session so would be grateful for all advice, no matter how brutal. If I have played a hand so so wrong then I want to be told so I can try to improve

craigcu12

gl with the cash and i' usually round if you want help.

the hand on the last page i call the flop because a big mistake made by lots of micro stakes is they lack attempts to double barrell with draws and bluffs "which are very rare themselves as most will chase them".

the hand above should be a fold on the flop and as played the turn should have got raised because now we would put him on an A a lot of the time and if you are only going to call you might as well fold the river because he won't want to triple barrell bluff and you must not have put him on just a top pair going off you decision to only call the turn.

CraigSG1

Hi. Hand 1 played fine but would chck behind. We are either miles ahead and won't get value or behind most of the time. 

Hand two. Hate the call pre. Raise or fold. As played raising turn for value and as played calling reasonable bet ok. 

waller02

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

Hi. Hand 1 played fine but would chck behind. We are either miles ahead and won't get value or behind most of the time.  Hand two. Hate the call pre. Raise or fold. As played raising turn for value and as played calling reasonable bet ok. 
Posted by CraigSG1

Re Hand 2: Can I ask why you hate the call pre, you said in the build a bankroll thread that there is nothing wrong with calling in position with J9s, so why not J8s?

hhyftrftdr

Think hand 2 is fine. Don't mind either flatting or 3betting pre. Obvs call the flop. Quite content to call the turn; keeps his value and bluffing range nicely in the hand. River is a poor card, think we generally have to pay it off though, sometimes they just get there.

Not sure about raising turn. Gonna fold out plenty of good aces, all their bluffs, probs only get action from Ax spades and better 2 pair/sets.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread : Re Hand 2: Can I ask why you hate the call pre, you said in the build a bankroll thread that there is nothing wrong with calling in position with J9s, so why not J8s?
Posted by waller02

double gappers are harder to make a hand with and your not garenteed to be in position either. Raising here greatly improves that and gives your trickier hand more options post. Playing the button gives you that bit more leverage/options as you are garenteed position. 

Maybe hate was the wrong word but being more proactive as your position to the button worsens isn't a bad way to go. 

Example, your never going to just call with premium hands UTG+1 but may elect to just call on button. Pretty vague but I hope you get my meaning. 

waller02

Cheers harry and craig....both make good points. I do need to widen my 3bet range I think and it is something I will try to adopt in future sessions.

Another session down, another losing one. Nothing major but would be nice to string a coupe of winning ones together........but I'm still learning, the game is a lot different to mtt's and I'm still trying to adapt!!

2 key hands again, won't post but will give the scenarios and see what I should have done:

1. I'm facing a 50bb 4 bet shove and I'm holding JJ. No reads/notes on oppo. Call or fold? I have seen players make similar moves with small pps, raggy suited aces, absolute junk and hands that have me crushed.

2. Again I'm facing a 4bet shove but this time for my full stack. I have AKs and no notes/reads on oppo. Call or fold?

No more cash tonight as I'm gonna play a couple of mtt's.

Session Profit/loss: -£14.51
Total Profit/loss: -£18.81

Must improve......

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

Cheers harry and craig....both make good points. I do need to widen my 3bet range I think and it is something I will try to adopt in future sessions. Another session down, another losing one. Nothing major but would be nice to string a coupe of winning ones together........but I'm still learning, the game is a lot different to mtt's and I'm still trying to adapt!! 2 key hands again, won't post but will give the scenarios and see what I should have done: 1. I'm facing a 50bb 4 bet shove and I'm holding JJ. No reads/notes on oppo. Call or fold? I have seen players make similar moves with small pps, raggy suited aces, absolute junk and hands that have me crushed. 2. Again I'm facing a 4bet shove but this time for my full stack. I have AKs and no notes/reads on oppo. Call or fold? No more cash tonight as I'm gonna play a couple of mtt's. Session Profit/loss: -£14.51 Total Profit/loss: -£18.81 Must improve......
Posted by waller02

Really hard to answer as a lot does depend (as usual!) on opponent. AND how much you have invested in the pot. Overshoves are easier to get away from but if you figure your getting the right price or not then that dictates if you call/fold. Generally I will give readless opponents the benefit and if I had invested say £1.20 and get shoved on for £10 into a sub £2 pot then, yes, I prob fold JJ. Just make a note that they will 4 bet shove so you know for future and then if you see any hands you can add these to the notes. 

AKs more inclined to call but not by much in same scenario. Your generally never far behind and can be way ahead as well, and you get some information on his shoving hands. Just dont base your decision purely on you want to see what he has! Remember, playing cash, if you dont like the situation you can fold and move on.

What I would say though is watch EVERY table your not in a hand with and try to get notes for free, thats often saved/made me a few quid.

waller02

So I had a quick hour on a mastercash table and man I regret it. I'm playing bad but I'm not running great either and the combination of the 2 led to a dreadful hour!!!

Here are 4 hands......mixture of run bad and bad play.......advice on them all pleeeeease lol

Hand 1
Still not sure if this was ul or just bad play. By the turn I thought he wasn't too strong and could push him off on the river......ofc he hit his dream card. Thoughts?

stewie7	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.53
CraigSG1	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£19.90
POKEY2011	Sit out
	Your hole cards	10 A
waller02	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.70
craigcu12	Fold
PFIXTER	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£9.48
stewie7	Call		£0.25	£1.00	£9.28
CraigSG1	Fold
Flop
		J 8 9
stewie7	Bet		£0.50	£1.50	£8.78
waller02	Call		£0.50	£2.00	£19.20
PFIXTER	Fold
Turn
		4
stewie7	Bet		£0.40	£2.40	£8.38
waller02	Raise		£2.10	£4.50	£17.10
stewie7	Call		£1.70	£6.20	£6.68
River
		5
stewie7	Check
waller02	Bet		£3.30	£9.50	£13.80
stewie7	Call		£3.30	£12.80	£3.38
waller02	Show	10 A
stewie7	Show	7 6
stewie7	Win	Straight to the 9	£11.84		£15.22

Hand 2
God knows where I was here, craig informed me he had a set.

stewie7	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£16.86
CraigSG1	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£24.98
	Your hole cards	Q Q
waller02	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£19.70
craigcu12	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£26.12
POKEY2011	Call		£0.30	£1.05	£24.28
68Trebor	Call		£0.30	£1.35	£19.70
stewie7	Fold
CraigSG1	Fold
Flop
		7 4 3
waller02	Bet		£0.70	£2.05	£19.00
craigcu12	Raise		£2.10	£4.15	£24.02
POKEY2011	Fold
68Trebor	Fold
waller02	Call		£1.40	£5.55	£17.60
Turn
		5
waller02	Check
craigcu12	Check
River
		A
waller02	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£8.00	£13.55	£16.02
waller02	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£5.13		£21.15
craigcu12	Return		£8.00	£0.42	£29.15

Hand 3
Discussed this hand with Craigcu and he explained why I should prob be folding on the turn. I just thought I was getting a decent price. Hard to put oppo on a 9.....with the flush draw on board which could reduce my number of outs I can see where Craig was coming from

CraigSG1	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£24.78
waller02	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£19.90
	Your hole cards	4 4
craigcu12	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£28.85
POKEY2011	Fold
68Trebor	Fold
stewie7	Raise		£0.50	£0.95	£16.51
CraigSG1	Fold
waller02	Call		£0.40	£1.35	£19.50
craigcu12	Call		£0.20	£1.55	£28.65
Flop
		5 6 7
waller02	Check
craigcu12	Check
stewie7	Bet		£1.16	£2.71	£15.35
waller02	Call		£1.16	£3.87	£18.34
craigcu12	Call		£1.16	£5.03	£27.49
Turn
		Q
waller02	Check
craigcu12	Check
stewie7	Bet		£1.36	£6.39	£13.99
waller02	Call		£1.36	£7.75	£16.98
craigcu12	Fold
River
		8
waller02	Check
stewie7	Bet		£6.35	£14.10	£7.64
waller02	Call		£6.35	£20.45	£10.63
stewie7	Show	9 9
waller02	Show	4 4
stewie7	Win	Straight to the 9	£19.05		£26.69

Hand 4
Sums things up. Decent pair, awful flop!

POKEY2011	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£23.84
68Trebor	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£19.90
	Your hole cards	J J
stewie7	Raise		£0.35	£0.50	£15.77
CraigSG1	Fold
waller02	Raise		£1.10	£1.60	£21.17
craigcu12	Call		£1.10	£2.70	£26.18
POKEY2011	Fold
68Trebor	Fold
stewie7	Call		£0.75	£3.45	£15.02
Flop
		A 10 9
stewie7	Bet		£0.30	£3.75	£14.72
waller02	Fold
craigcu12	Fold
stewie7	Show	K A
stewie7	Win		£3.19		£17.91
stewie7	Return		£0.30	£0.26	£18.21

In summary.......not playing well, cash is hard!

A -£23.90 hour.........total loss = -£42.71

Thoughts on the hands please........is it as bad as it looks??

CraigSG1

I will say this, I fold like a pro!! Awesome arnt I? 

Hand 1:  raise flop. Chq raising turn doesn't rep much and never making him fold any value hands. Give up on river for same reason. 

Hand 2: bet bigger flop, make it harder for anyone to bluff so any other agg action or call narrows down your opponents range. After that fine. Can't beat much, especially with a chunky river bet. 

Hand 3: fold flop. We were looking for a set and missed and a lot of our percieved outs are dirty and rare to win a big pot if you are ahead when you hit with a four straight on board. 

Hand 4: pre fine. Flop we have to call one street with absurd price and see what happens. 

waller02

Cheers for the advice Craig, appreciate you taking the time to look through the hands and pointing out the mistakes, especially as if I do improve it could be your money I'm taking. Don't worry not much chance of that though, still got a long way to go!!!!!!

Thank the lord for mtt's, I have just won the 7.15 deepy to recoup the losses on the cash tables!
waller025200001£58.14
I don't understand how I can do ok in the smaller stakes mtt's but be so poor at cash. Just goes to show how different the 2 formats are I guess. I'll get there one day though hopefully. As long as I'm still rolled for it I will keep trying because I do enjoy the challenge!

craigcu12

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

Cheers for the advice Craig, appreciate you taking the time to look through the hands and pointing out the mistakes, especially as if I do improve it could be your money I'm taking. Don't worry not much chance of that though, still got a long way to go!!!!!! Thank the lord for mtt's, I have just won the 7.15 deepy to recoup the losses on the cash tables! waller02 520000 1 £58.14 I don't understand how I can do ok in the smaller stakes mtt's but be so poor at cash. Just goes to show how different the 2 formats are I guess. I'll get there one day though hopefully. As long as I'm still rolled for it I will keep trying because I do enjoy the challenge!
Posted by waller02

the major difference i see between cash and tournaments is how loose people are postflop, it's one of the reasons i struggle so badly in MTT yet do so well in cash.

for instance hand 2 you held QQ and i held 44 in a MTT i can see lots make reraise with that QQ on the flop because whilst it might be beating sets and two pair what it's not beating is flush draws and straight draws, with cash games you probably just make the call knowing that the blinds never change and as you can restock it would be easier to keep losses at a low.

that is why i manage to do so well in cash but awful in MTT.
in cash i take advantage of all the nitty players and steal pots with just a simple cbet or bet a hand in position

here are a few examples

g	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£20.00
clipper444	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£4.03
ronnieg197	Sit out
	Your hole cards	7 7
lecksville	Fold
g	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£29.56
craigcu12	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£19.10
	Raise		£2.50	£4.00	£17.50
clipper444	Fold
g	Call		£2.00	£6.00	£27.56
craigcu12	Call		£2.00	£8.00	£17.10
Flop
		3 2 9
	Check
g	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£3.00	£11.00	£14.10
	Fold
g	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£7.60		£21.70
craigcu12	Return		£3.00	£0.40	£24.70

when he raised that hand preflop the last thing he should be doing is Ch/F this flop but when he does, it allows me to steal more pots.

dontazeme	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.90
obclead	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£56.54
	Your hole cards	7 7
craigcu12	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£18.41
nalotofdet	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£26.79
	Call		£0.60	£2.10	£56.37
Ghost7	Fold
dontazeme	Fold
obclead	Fold
Flop
		6 5 A
craigcu12	Bet		£0.80	£2.90	£17.61
nalotofdet	Call		£0.80	£3.70	£25.99
	Call		£0.80	£4.50	£55.57
Turn
		4
craigcu12	Bet		£2.20	£6.70	£15.41
nalotofdet	Fold
	Call		£2.20	£8.90	£53.37
River
		2
craigcu12	Bet		£7.00	£15.90	£8.41
	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£8.45		£16.86
craigcu12	Return		£7.00	£0.45	£23.86

because this player just called the flop and turn with his AJ i was able to make him fold it on the river as what he thought i had was a set, again if this were an MTT i would be sure to see the AJ call as those are times you get much looser callers post flop.

that is why i struggle so much in them myself. when your like me the last thing you want playing are calling stations post flop and that is the type of player you see in MTT. my type is them who are rocks and fit fold because they get scared so easy.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

Cheers for the advice Craig, appreciate you taking the time to look through the hands and pointing out the mistakes, especially as if I do improve it could be your money I'm taking. Don't worry not much chance of that though, still got a long way to go!!!!!! Thank the lord for mtt's, I have just won the 7.15 deepy to recoup the losses on the cash tables! waller02 520000 1 £58.14 I don't understand how I can do ok in the smaller stakes mtt's but be so poor at cash. Just goes to show how different the 2 formats are I guess. I'll get there one day though hopefully. As long as I'm still rolled for it I will keep trying because I do enjoy the challenge!
Posted by waller02

Your welcome. I'm no expert but I am a consistent winner at this level so hope I can be of some help. I don't mind if you do start beating me up at the tables as that forces me to improve. Some people say you need to table select and if your goal is 100% to make money then fine but I never table select. IMO I want to improve so playing with the better players and players you struggle against can only help to improve your own game. Yes I want to make £ but I also want to improve and move up. 

When I first moved to 10nl last year I didn't enjoy it, probably finished a little down and moved back to purely MTT's. This year when I moved back with more focus on improving I have done really, really well. I can easily move up stakes but I want to increase my BR and continue to improve my hand reading and bet patterns and player watching before I do. 

Like I said. Patience! Best I can say is to keep things as simple as possible for yourself and concentrate on basics first, no multi street bluffing and mind games etc. a lot of players are not thinking like that so don't get bogged down. Build a foundation and then add things from there. Worked for me. 

waller02

Cheers craig(s). I'm def gonna keep plugging away as I really do want to improve at cash. I have also had a pm about watching some other winning players sessions to try and learn from that too so def taking that offer up.

Also are there any good, free cash poker training videos kicking about on you tube etc. I have googled it but there were quite a few and wasn't sure which ones were worth watching.

craigcu12

here is a one that i use alot
it does include the usage of HUDs in the videos and some of them are 10 seaters but in will help you with some of the basics and their are lots of articals to read in the strategy tab as well so you could try this if you want as it's free.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/videos/

one piece of advice i will give you myself is don't have tournament and cash both running together because what could happen is you will start playing your cash tables like you play MTTs and also make more mistakes in MTTs as you will be under more pressure from playing cash.

i have made this mistake a lot myself.

waller02

In Response to Re: The "I will be a half decent cash player before I die" thread:

here is a one that i use alot it does include the usage of HUDs in the videos and some of them are 10 seaters but in will help you with some of the basics and their are lots of articals to read in the strategy tab as well so you could try this if you want as it's free. http://www.thepokerbank.com/videos/ one piece of advice i will give you myself is don't have tournament and cash both running together because what could happen is you will start playing your cash tables like you play MTTs and also make more mistakes in MTTs as you will be under more pressure from playing cash. i have made this mistake a lot myself.
Posted by craigcu12

Will check some of those out when I have the time. Thanks mate

waller02

Have had an AWFUL day at work today, the worst in my 3 yrs doing my current job. I work in Primary Substations (33kV - 11kV) repairing and maintaining all apparatus within the compounds.

Today we were maintaining the Transformer Tap Changer (which alters the output voltage to deal with the differences in the load during peak or off peak periods). The tap changer is filled with insulating oil which acts as a coolant and insulator (approx. 800 litres in this particular model)......anyway to cut a long story short, we were refilling the tap changer with new oil at the end of the maintenance, but due to a blockage in the breather there was build up of pressure. This pressure is forced out of the explosion vent (a weak spot on the transformer which is there to prevent major damage), I just happened to be standing underneath the vent as hundreds of litres of insulating oil was forced out of it.

I write this after having had a 30min shower, washing my hair with washing up liquid, shampoo, conditioner and scrubbing a layer of skin away.......only to still smell of oil. So, I jumped in the bath and repeated the process.........still smell of oil. My work clothes had to be thrown in the skip. This stuff is gonna be coming out of my pores for days!!!

It made my workmates' day but has certainly ruined mine, although I will have no choice but to see the funny side of it when I return to work tomorrow!!

Settled down to play a couple of hours session......couldn't log onto the laptop. I'm now logged on and about to play. Surely now I deserve a winning session, but they say bad luck comes in 3's so not going into this expecting much!!

Gl at the tables all