The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?

ShaunyT

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
ShaunyT	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£51.11
v1	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£36.33
	Your hole cards	K K
v2	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£12.43
bwzz	Fold
Nortonscoi	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£27.03
luckytess	Call		£0.20	£0.90	£7.50
ShaunyT	Raise		£1.30	£2.20	£49.81
v1	Raise		£2.80	£5.00	£33.53
v2	Call		£2.80	£7.80	£9.63
Nortonscoi	Fold
luckytess	Fold
ShaunyT	Raise		£4.20	£12.00	£45.61
v1	All-in		£33.53	£45.53	£0.00
v2	All-in		£9.63	£55.16	£0.00
ShaunyT	Call		£30.93	£86.09	£14.68
ShaunyT	Show	K K
v1	Show	A A
v2	Show	4 4
Flop
		3 5 6
Turn
		10
River
		Q
v1	Win	Pair of Aces	£84.29		£84.29

With that shove size and 15mins of watching him play I was so convinced he had AA I nearly did fold. Oh well.

choc135

Personally, preflop i never would / could. Obviously you lost this hand, but take in to consideration how many times KK would hold, especially all in pre flop. 

craigcu12

when I saw the question I was expecting their to be already a open raise and 3bet done by 2 others. this one will be AA KLK QQ AK and sometimes JJ and AQ.

hhyftrftdr

Think the guy with 44 played it perfectly tbh.

ShaunyT

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

Think the guy with 44 played it perfectly tbh.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

 

lol. I've edited the names out so not to be cruel. The guy with 44 was a fish. It was quite a soft table in general, typically I stacked off against the only player I would credit with AA in that spot.

Although the guy with 44 paid me back a bit. Ended up about £5 down, so not too bad

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Nortonscoi	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£25.45
billytheki	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£38.11
	Your hole cards	A A
ShaunyT	Raise		£1.00	£1.30	£37.53
v1	Call		£1.00	£2.30	£72.36
44 guy	Call		£1.00	£3.30	£15.50
Nortonscoi	Fold
billytheki	Call		£0.80	£4.10	£37.31
Flop
		9 A 3
billytheki	Check
ShaunyT	Bet		£2.00	£6.10	£35.53
v1	Call		£2.00	£8.10	£70.36
44 guy	Raise		£4.00	£12.10	£11.50
billytheki	Fold
ShaunyT	Raise		£4.60	£16.70	£30.93
v1	Fold
44 guy	Call		£2.60	£19.30	£8.90
Turn
		5
ShaunyT	Bet		£9.65	£28.95	£21.28
44 guy	All-in		£8.90	£37.85	£0.00
ShaunyT	Unmatched bet		£0.75	£37.10	£22.03
ShaunyT	Show	A A
44 guy	Show	A Q
River
		8
ShaunyT	Win	Three Aces	£35.30		£57.33

Nuggy962

Hey

I think if you have a read on a player - maybe just maybe fold 1/100 in cash games. As long as playing a level that suits bank role, happy to get it all in pre everytime.

ShaunyT

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

Hey I think if you have a read on a player - maybe just maybe fold 1/100 in cash games. As long as playing a level that suits bank role, happy to get it all in pre everytime.
Posted by Nuggy962

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking, obviously VERY RARELY but I think every once in a while there is a case for folding KK. In this situation I was slightly swayed by the fact 2 players were all in so I would get to see if I was right or not.



Funnily enough I watched the EPT London coverage where a player 4 bet KK pre and the guy to his left looked down at aces and actually said f@*k me, what a hand before 5bet jamming!! The original 3bet folded but the guy with KK still called!!!

LARSON7

Contentious answer but yes:P

I've never been good enough to do it tho:)

When i played 10nl there were certain players who would only ever 4 / 5 bet Aces or Kings, if we are sitting with kings then it must be aces.

Certain players would never 4/5 bet AK QQ.

77Chris91

Imo when playing more than 100bb there are situations where we can fold KK with reads pre. As played, with 15 mins of info on the villain you can't fold here.

GaryLaud

your quetion is about folding Kings yet your example hands show Aces??? Good job of getting them to stick though! I answer to your question:-

1) Kings

Well no certainly not folding King's pre because I have noticed they are a winning combination suitable of thier hole-card status and you always seem to get alot of value from them! 

On the other hand

2) Aces

I am now almost certainly folding aces from now on. I lost a major pot in the high profile "Rainman 2.20 DS" when I bet huge with my aces only to have them cracked by  full house! I opened up my "notable hands" log to add it to them, which i haven't done in ages, and what did I find? it was full of lists of where I've had aces cracked.

I spoke to another lady on my table about it, and she said that her aces had been cracked the last EIGHT times in a row, and had tried everything to previail with them, from betting all-in, raising standard 3x, limping and it's just not getting through. And I've read countless "Sob Stories" on here of them falling to seemingly impossible odds.

So make what you will of THAT! like I said above, Kings, Never folding them, but from now on Aces, i'm treating them as though they are a pair of 1's! 

Clyde420

 I saw phil Ivry fold KK once, but it was to a 1mil allin pf, I think it was against Brad Booth, and he was holding 42s. Maybe a publicity stunt tho.

 

 Big bubbles in tourneys sometimes make it tempting to fold premiums pre..

Jac35

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

 I saw phil Ivry fold KK once, but it was to a 1mil allin pf, I think it was against Brad Booth, and he was holding 42s. Maybe a publicity stunt tho.    Big bubbles in tourneys sometimes make it tempting to fold premiums pre..
Posted by Clyde420

Ivey didn't fold the kings pre in that hand

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

 I saw phil Ivry fold KK once, but it was to a 1mil allin pf, I think it was against Brad Booth, and he was holding 42s. Maybe a publicity stunt tho.    Big bubbles in tourneys sometimes make it tempting to fold premiums pre..
Posted by Clyde420

This shouldn't apply to any tournament player worth their salt.

Unless you're talking at the WSOP ME, in which case I might pass a strong hand on the bubble

Clyde420

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre? : Ivey didn't fold the kings pre in that hand
Posted by Jac35

oops, so he didn't, was years ago I last watched it. It was a 300k bet with a gutshot on the flop. And he got him to fold KK on a 376 board.

ShaunyT

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

your quetion is about folding Kings yet your example hands show Aces??? Good job of getting them to stick though! I answer to your question:- 1) Kings Well no certainly not folding King's pre because I have noticed they are a winning combination suitable of thier hole-card status and you always seem to get alot of value from them!  On the other hand 2) Aces I am now almost certainly folding aces from now on. I lost a major pot in the high profile "Rainman 2.20 DS" when I bet huge with my aces only to have them cracked by  full house! I opened up my "notable hands" log to add it to them, which i haven't done in ages, and what did I find? it was full of lists of where I've had aces cracked. I spoke to another lady on my table about it, and she said that her aces had been cracked the last EIGHT times in a row, and had tried everything to previail with them, from betting all-in, raising standard 3x, limping and it's just not getting through. And I've read countless "Sob Stories" on here of them falling to seemingly impossible odds. So make what you will of THAT! like I said above, Kings, Never folding them, but from now on Aces, i'm treating them as though they are a pair of 1's! 
Posted by GaryLaud

Hey Gary. Not sure what you mean by what I've highlighted, my example hand is me holding KK. The 2nd hand is just to show I got my money back

But I am specifically talking about pre flop. Never in my life am I folding AA pre unless I'm in a super high roller on the bubble and the min cash is £100k with 2 players all in lol, but like I say (and a few others have) sometimes when you are very deep and vs a nit there is a case for folding KK pre, although I do stress VERY rarely.

Matt237

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre?:

In Response to Re: The age old question. Can you ever fold KK pre? : Hey Gary. Not sure what you mean by what I've highlighted, my example hand is me holding KK. The 2nd hand is just to show I got my money back But I am specifically talking about pre flop. Never in my life am I folding AA pre unless I'm in a super high roller on the bubble and the min cash is £100k with 2 players all in lol, but like I say (and a few others have) sometimes when you are very deep and vs a nit there is a case for folding KK pre, although I do stress VERY rarely.
Posted by ShaunyT

oh dear!