Should I jam flop?

citylawyer

As I had the straight to A on the flop and a nut flush draw I was trying to build a nice pot, but should I have just jammed?

Realise I should have seen the obvious full house when the board paired...

Hand History #804469140 (21:48 05/08/2014)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
citylawyer	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£52.48
argo	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£37.62
	Your hole cards	K A
TMT_TBE	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£41.85
Mco001	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£23.45
Teevers	Fold
STR1BS	Fold
citylawyer	Call		£0.50	£2.00	£51.98
argo	Fold
Flop
		J Q 10
citylawyer	Bet		£1.50	£3.50	£50.48
TMT_TBE	Call		£1.50	£5.00	£40.35
Mco001	Call		£1.50	£6.50	£21.95
Turn
		10
citylawyer	Check
TMT_TBE	Bet		£3.00	£9.50	£37.35
Mco001	Call		£3.00	£12.50	£18.95
citylawyer	Call		£3.00	£15.50	£47.48
River
		K
citylawyer	Check
TMT_TBE	Check
Mco001	Bet		£10.40	£25.90	£8.55
citylawyer	Raise		£20.80	£46.70	£26.68
TMT_TBE	Fold
Mco001	All-in		£8.55	£55.25	£0.00
citylawyer	Unmatched bet		£1.85	£53.40	£28.53
citylawyer	Show	K A
Mco001	Show	Q Q
Mco001	Win	Full House, Queens and 10s	£51.60		£51.60

F_Ivanovic

Imagine if they had the QQ without the H and a Q came OTT! Sadly poker doesn't always work out like that.

Why would you want to jam the flop? Sure, if you knew your opponent had QQ and that he probably wasn't capable of folding a set to a flop jam - then doing so might be good. But we are missing out on a ton of value on other hands. Your flop bet was fine - worse flush draws may come along, pairs + straight draws will call as well as any 2 pairs or sets. 

Turn card is not the nicest but I would expect to still be ahead. Was there a particular reason you decided to check? When it goes bet and a call I'm now a bit worried I might be behind but we can't fold given them odds. 

River again is a really annoying card as now hands like AQ split with us. We also lose to KT as well if that's in villains range. (as well as KK) - meaning the only hands we beat now are KQ and QJ. None of which are going to be betting river unless they're turning their hand into a bluff.

When they bet big OTR here now it comes down to any reads you have on them - if they have a tight range pre-flop then there's a very good chance you are beat here and folding might be best. If they are really loose then there is no way I could fold. However, what I would never consider is raising. When you make a bet, you have to ask: "what worse hands are calling" - here, there are absolutely zero worse hands that are going to call when you check/min-r river. What did you think he might call with that you beat?

grantorino

I would often 3 bet for value pre but flatting is ok, depends on reads

Flop bet is ok, I think I prefer a c/r in general you can get money in v lots of hands you crush. Jamming turn would be redic without reads they are complete spewfish

Turn is a clear vbet imo, once you check calling is fine

River depends a bit on reads. You are calling really for a split at best and he can easily have boats. In general fold>call imo. Never raise imo, unless you have reads he like calls this board after this action with 9x  or trips. Extremely unlikely imo

CraigSG1

As the hand plays out your going to struggle not to lose your stack how ever you play it. As played raising river is pointless as your either chopping or behind.

I think the biggest mistake you make is pre flop. We have to raise this big. We have a great hand but we will be OOP and we dont want to play this multiway and we can then make post flop decisions easier.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop?:

As the hand plays out your going to struggle not to lose your stack how ever you play it. As played raising river is pointless as your either chopping or behind. I think the biggest mistake you make is pre flop. We have to raise this big. We have a great hand but we will be OOP and we dont want to play this multiway and we can then make post flop decisions easier.
Posted by CraigSG1

Why don't we want to play it multiway? Are you getting it in if utg 4bets? Not sure it makes postflop decisions that much easier. I think he prob should 3b for value but it depends on reads esp how wide utg calls 3bets

jams88

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop?:

As the hand plays out your going to struggle not to lose your stack how ever you play it. As played raising river is pointless as your either chopping or behind. I think the biggest mistake you make is pre flop. We have to raise this big. We have a great hand but we will be OOP and we dont want to play this multiway and we can then make post flop decisions easier.
Posted by CraigSG1

I would disagree with this. Raising is fine don't get me wrong but its not a must. Flatting ak oop is also fine alot of the time aslong as we are comfortable folding if nothing to our likeing comes down. Atleast 1 of the players he is against in this hand is a reg and to have AK in our calling range is no bad thing pretty easy to play post as our hand is disguised. We will ge bluffed off the best hand sometimes sure but that is going to happen whenever we are oop with any hand.

Raising river is bad though i can't see us ever getting called by worse and there are so mnay house possibilites out there. Depending on the villian i may be able to fold here if I have any reads but personelly im not good enough to fold to the bet and have to call for a chop which isn't great even if we are right

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop?:

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop? : Why don't we want to play it multiway? Are you getting it in if utg 4bets? Not sure it makes postflop decisions that much easier. I think he prob should 3b for value but it depends on reads esp how wide utg calls 3bets
Posted by grantorino

I say we don't want to play multiway as a lot of ppl can get married to one pair and we are always first to act so going to find this tough to play as either a drawing hand or a value hand. By raising again we take control of pot and can better define the hands we will be up against AND we can take the pot down now. It's a lot easier to flat this if we are in position. I think it makes post flop decisions easier as our stack to pot ratio is easier to play decision wise. I agree it depends on what reads we have but we can look like we are squeezing (which we essentially are) with a wide range and not as strong as AKs. 

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop?:

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop? : I would disagree with this. Raising is fine don't get me wrong but its not a must. Flatting ak oop is also fine alot of the time aslong as we are comfortable folding if nothing to our likeing comes down. Atleast 1 of the players he is against in this hand is a reg and to have AK in our calling range is no bad thing pretty easy to play post as our hand is disguised. We will ge bluffed off the best hand sometimes sure but that is going to happen whenever we are oop with any hand. Raising river is bad though i can't see us ever getting called by worse and there are so mnay house possibilites out there. Depending on the villian i may be able to fold here if I have any reads but personelly im not good enough to fold to the bet and have to call for a chop which isn't great even if we are right
Posted by jams88

I think it's more of a must being OOP. In position it's a fine hand to flat for deception. 

grantorino

  In Response to Re: Should I jam flop?:

In Response to Re: Should I jam flop? : I say we don't want to play multiway as a lot of ppl can get married to one pair 

This is great when we flop a pair

and we are always first to act so going to find this tough to play as either a drawing hand or a value hand.

And this changes when we 3bet?

 By raising again we take control of pot 

Do we? How? Yeah we get betting lead, but if we cbet and they fold we often had best hand

and can better define the hands we will be up against 

If by better defined you mean make him fold the weaker part of his range, and only play against the stronger part

AND we can take the pot down now.

I doubt they fold better hands often, maybe some pps sometimes but they make a correct fold a lot when this happens

 It's a lot easier to flat this if we are in position. I think it makes post flop decisions easier as our stack to pot ratio is easier to play decision wise.

It's easier 3b in position also. Not so sure about postflop. We miss and a cbet gets called on a raggy board it ain't that easy imo. We can prob play fit or fold profitably if we flat

 I agree it depends on what reads we have but we can look like we are squeezing (which we essentially are) with a wide range and not as strong as AKs. 

 

Bit pedantic, but I don't think it's a squeeze when we are as strong as AKs, but yeah we can value 3b often

Posted by CraigSG1

grantorino

Craig I think we should usually 3bet for value. But I certainly think calling is better than getting folds, and it depends a lot on utg imo, 3betting blind v utg looks strong even with  a caller in between, esp as caller in mp. There are merits to calling here, esp against tighter villains