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A complete mess with AK.

peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
edited December 2021 in Strategy
This hand is from a six-max (speed) game, no reads.

I made a complete mess of this hand and need a walkthrough as I often find myself in this situation. At the time I remember thinking "I need to raise big here to get rid of some opponents, let's raise to 280". However, looking back at the hand, it probably should have been a much bigger raise. Thoughts?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
lacylinda1 Small blind
25.00 25.00 1425.00
peter27 Big blind   50.00 75.00 3250.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
     
Batso Raise   100.00 175.00 1810.00
TURN_IT_IN Call   100.00 275.00 2240.00
lacylinda1 Call   75.00 350.00 1350.00
peter27 Raise   280.00 630.00 2970.00
Batso Call   230.00 860.00 1580.00
TURN_IT_IN Call   230.00 1090.00 2010.00
lacylinda1 Call   230.00 1320.00 1120.00
Flop
   
  • 3
  • 5
  • J
     
lacylinda1 Check        
peter27 Check        
Batso Bet   900.00 2220.00 680.00
TURN_IT_IN All-in   2010.00 4230.00 0.00
lacylinda1 Fold        
peter27 Fold        
Batso All-in   680.00 4910.00 0.00
TURN_IT_IN Unmatched bet   430.00 4480.00 430.00
Batso Show
  • Q
  • J
     
TURN_IT_IN Show
  • Q
  • Q
     
Turn
   
  • K
     
River
   
  • 2
     
TURN_IT_IN Win Pair of Queens 4480.00   4910.00

Comments

  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited August 2014
    Probably best to just ship it in pre!
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited August 2014
    Well I'm not folding.

    Could play it small ball and peel the BB and proceed with caution. Or more likely, a large raise that says we are playing for stacks if anyone wants to come along.

    Shoving pre can never be a bad option either when we cover the table in this pretty shallow format....I'd hazard a guess AQ etc would snap you off here.

    Dev, surprised you think that a single raise and 2 callers means someone must have JJ+....we block AA and KK for starters, and it's 4 handed so highly highly likely that AK is the best hand. Obviously we'll be racing sometimes, and crushing their range often, with only very rarely being crushed ourselves. I'm astounded you think the best option is to just open fold.
  • seanallenseanallen Member Posts: 114
    edited August 2014
    Hi Peter

    I remember in a previous hand you posted a while back you saying something along the lines of " I have own my own reasons for not wanting to commit too many of my chips into the pot early in a DYM"

    Just wondering if this is a theory you could expand upon a little bit.

    There does seem to be a bit of a running theme where you make kind of small, potentially non committing? 3 bets.

    Be interested to here.
  • jimb0d1jimb0d1 Member Posts: 660
    edited August 2014
    22 is never calling though Dev! Shove gets through a lot and AK is never likely to be crushed this shallow.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2014
    Is this a dym?

    If regular sng then 3bet bigger imo, shoving looks ok

    C/f fine as played
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited August 2014
    Meh, if this was the first level with all 6 players then maybe an UTG raise and call deserves some respect - but 4 handed there is going to be a way bigger range of opening hands than TT+ AQs+, especially for a min raise.

    Lots of Axs, broadway combos, smaller pairs and maybe even a number of suited connectors and Kxs hands.

    Factor all those in and AK has to be ahead of the overall range.

    I probably consider more a fit-or-fold if it is early stages, but more than happy to gamble 4-handed, especially as we need to lock up 1st places at standard SNGs to make them pay.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK.:
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK. : i was simply using the 22 as an example of how weak ak is, i wasn't referring it to this hand mate. if players can't see the danger signs staring them in the face like here, then they really do have a lot to learn.
    Posted by devonfish5
    If it's a regular sng rather than a dym there aren't danger signs here, AK is not weak. 
  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK.:
    i don't see how  ak is ahead of smaller pairs mate.. it's a race & we are gambling unnecessarily imo. the hand has been shown a player has qq. i agree, it's an allin or fold.. so it's a fold .. FOR ME.
    Posted by devonfish5
    You're right, smaller pairs are marginally ahead.

    If someone ONLY plays pairs then I can see an argument for folding AK, especially as we can raise their big blind and get folds 90%+ of the time risk free.
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited August 2014
    TBH, even if this was a DYM I'd just shove in this exact same spot. Get looked up by a frustrated weaker Ax hand, in the money. Easy game, get that win booked.

    FWIW, in either a sit n' go or MTT, folding out a flip by shoving AK can never be a bad thing. 22 might technically be ahead but that's beside the point.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK.:
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK. : a flip is always a bad thing in dym's as this isn't a winning strategy long term as you need to win 55% of games played to break even. you should avoid flipping like the plague whenever possible. 22 is ahead technically.. that is the point.
    Posted by devonfish5
    Think you should retread hhty post again. He said making hands that are flipping fold can never be bad, and I would say this is true for all forms of the game

    Yeah you need to win 55%, I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean we always need >55% equity even in a dym. Icm will dictate you sometimes need way more, pot odds combined with Icm will sometimes mean you need less
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited August 2014
    ok gt you win, i'm trying my best here but all you're doing is finding fault with my anaylisis & posts, so i'll delete them.
    i'm trying to help & give my thoughts to a player who is clearly struggling playing the ak hand, and i'm trying to give him a helping hand in the right direction.
    i don't suppose he's interested in icm or any other technical terms, he was asking for some advice/help & through my limited knowledge i've picked up from playing a few thousand dym's i thought i might be able to help.
    clearly you are a good knowledgeable player so i'll leave it to you & the others to help him.
    as to hhy, why would you be astounded i should fold ak p/f  i do also fold kk you know... sometimes. :)



  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK.:
    ok gt you win, i'm trying my best here but all you're doing is finding fault with my anaylisis & posts, so i'll delete them. i'm trying to help & give my thoughts to a player who is clearly struggling playing the ak hand, and i'm trying to give him a helping hand in the right direction. i don't suppose he's interested in icm or any other technical terms, he was asking for some advice/help & through my limited knowledge i've picked up from playing a few thousand dym's i thought i might be able to help. clearly you are a good knowledgeable player so i'll leave it to you & the others to help him. as to hhy, why would you be astounded i should fold ak p/f  i do also fold kk you know... sometimes. :)
    Posted by devonfish5
    I have no idea why you feel the need to delete your posts. You shouldn't take my posts so personally, and I apologise if they came across as having a go at you that certainly wasn't the intention

    You stated your opinion that's fine. I disagreed that the action meant you always were up against a pair, and I think describing AK as weak is a bit much. I also don't think the fact you need to win 55% of games is very relevant to the equity required in an individual hand. I've seen something similar posted here before ( don't think it was by you) and it doesn't make much sense to me, but I haven't really looked at the math on it I could easily be wrong. Obv Icm will mean you need very strong equity to call certain spots esp on bubble.

    I'm sure you can help the op with your knowledge of sngs, I disagreed with some things you said sure, but it could easily be me that's wrong. It's a forum it's for arguing the merits of different approaches, and learning from the discussion. Just argue your side, even if your wrong ( and no I'm not saying anything you said in this thread is wrong) you will usually learn from the posts that disagree with you. Good luck at the tables, apologies again if posts came across as critical of you
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited August 2014
    Apology accepted gt,
    Obviously i accept players all have different views on how to play a hand, that is a given.
    it felt as though you were all attacking my thoughts and basically saying that i'm wrong and you are all right,
    thats how it felt to me anyway. and even if you were right and i was wrong i was offering my opinion on how i would have played the hand, regardless of it being good/bad or right/wrong.
    i did originally say i would fold p/f based on my dym play of course, with my second choice being aipf.
    i then re-edited a post to say that having looked at the hand again & realising it was a single table six max speed game, that the aipf was fine and probably the better play, rather than the fold.
    as i don't play these games and now only play dym's where it's all about survival, and these speed games i'm assuming are top heavy pay-out, top 2 or 3 i'm guessing now, then my first initial thought was wrong, which i also admitted in a later post. whether you read that or not i don't know.
    anyway, i came here with good intentions to try and help out a fellow player, which i did to the best of my ability...as low as that might be.



  • Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited August 2014
    Shove looks good actually in this format. 
  • seanallenseanallen Member Posts: 114
    edited August 2014

    When you say 'no reads' do you mean you cant remember or you actually had none? 

    We are into the third level and two people have gone out already.


  • LARSON7LARSON7 Member Posts: 4,491
    edited August 2014
    Hey Peter,

    The hand looks absolutely fine to me.

    You could go a bit bigger pre with the 3 bet, I suppose it doesn't really make a difference all players were still going to want to see a flop.

    As others have said as well, jamming pre is good too.

    Not at all a complete mess.
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited August 2014
    In Response to Re: A complete mess with AK.:
    Hey Peter, The hand looks absolutely fine to me. You could go a bit bigger pre with the 3 bet, I suppose it doesn't really make a difference all players were still going to want to see a flop. As others have said as well, jamming pre is good too. Not at all a complete mess.
    Posted by LARSON7
    That fence comfortable?
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