Another butchered NL10 hand?

shakinaces

No real notes on guy that called me down. Only hand of note was a (dubious) call with top pair where it turned out he had bluffed turn and river with air.

I'd been playing about with 1/2 pot bets on dry-ish flops, irrespective of whether I had air or the nuts. Maybe should have been a bit bigger with the hearts there.  Barrelled the turn thinking that only a J or pair would call, so get rid of any flush draws / over cards / A high and maybe even some pairs 22-55 (although unlikely, I know).

Then figured if I'd been called down there must be a J or PP so bombed the river.

Sure, a bit of UL that he had the 6, but have I made errors that got myself into this spot?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
XLNC_POKER	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£5.71
chrisx2525	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£9.27
	Your hole cards	Q K
Toonoo	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£12.09
shakinaces	Raise		£0.40	£0.65	£11.86
villain	Call		£0.40	£1.05	£7.81
VINEY73	Fold
XLNC_POKER	Call		£0.35	£1.40	£5.36
chrisx2525	Fold
Toonoo	Fold
Flop
		J 6 6
XLNC_POKER	Check
shakinaces	Bet		£0.65	£2.05	£11.21
villain	Call		£0.65	£2.70	£7.16
XLNC_POKER	Fold
Turn
		6
shakinaces	Bet		£1.30	£4.00	£9.91
villain	Call		£1.30	£5.30	£5.86
River
		Q
shakinaces	All-in		£9.91	£15.21	£0.00
villain	All-in		£5.86	£21.07	£0.00
shakinaces	Unmatched bet		£4.05	£17.02	£4.05
shakinaces	Show	Q K
villain	Show	5 6
villain	Win	Four 6s	£15.74		£15.74

CraigSG1

Trying to put out the fact he has quads I think at these levels, yea, I think this works a lot and you will get paid or bluff out by the turn as it does look like you have a strong hand. I wonder what you would have done on a blank river?

shakinaces

On a blank river I assume he must have a small PP or a J (or 6) and I shut down.

If I know the player a bit then maybe I still jam, but against a random I shut down 100%

DOHHHHHHH

Flop size is good.

Struggling to think of a single hand better than ours that we could fold out ott? 

shakinaces

Yeah I was thinking about this again this morning and I hate the turn bet now.

Standard random I'm starting with a range of pairs TT or lower (maybe JJ and QQ) and broadway cards, with the odd junk hand/raggy ace. So yeah, if they call the flop then they aren't folding a full house (even 22) and I only stand to fold out things like AT/KQ/QT/KT that were stubborn to that point.

Against some of the regs I think I maybe get more credit and they may have a wider range and are more likely to float the flop with hearts/overs and take a punt if I shut down on the turn (which I probably do too frequently oop).

77Chris91

C-betting this flop 3-way is a leak imo. KQ with a heart is a much better candidate.

If your c-betting this combo 3 way your likely c-betting far too much.

As played river is an ez jam.

shakinaces

Thanks for the feedback Chris - out of interest, do you mean this should (almost) never be a cbet in this spot?

Ie Rarely getting value from strong hands and let them catch up a bit (JJ/A6s and possibly 67s) / can get value owned or bluffed with medium strength hands (QQ+ and AJ/KJs) / or no good for bluffing (everything else).

77Chris91

In Response to ..:

Thanks for the feedback Chris - out of interest, do you mean this should (almost) never be a cbet in this spot? Ie Rarely getting value from strong hands and let them catch up a bit (JJ/A6s and possibly 67s) / can get value owned or bluffed with medium strength hands (QQ+ and AJ/KJs) / or no good for bluffing (everything else).
Posted by shakinaces

Np Shakin.

No you definitely can c-bet a lot of stuff here. If your c-betting KQo without a heart though your probably betting with virtually everything you raised preflop with. (Reason I say a heart is important is that there is so many more turn cards you can continue semi bluffing on.)

You can see that if you bet JJ/65s/76s/AJ/KJ/AA/KK/QQ for value and every other hand you raised pre-flop with as a bluff your range is going to have far to many bluffs in it.

This may not be an issue at 10nl but as you move up stakes better players will notice this very quickly.

shakinaces

Cool, cheers for the clarification.

To be truthful (please stop reading if you play vs me lol) - up until now I'd mostly (but not always) bet overcards here (AK/AQ/KQ) as I know that I still have outs if I get called by a J (albeit with maybe some reverse implied odds vs AJ, KJ and QJ), I'd check 77-TT and maybe call (oppo6 dependent) and would give up anything else (T9, 78, T8, 79 etc)

In turn, that goes someway to preventing too many bluffs.

Although as I write that, I now start to wonder if I'm back to front.  Should I check my overcards (which may still have showdown value) and only add in any cbets with my lower air hands (where I can happily auto fold to a raise and take a 1-and-done route... in that there would be little point betting the turn if I hit 2nd pair).

Or I could just take the standard NL10 nit route and just bet value hands only lol... and save any more in depth thinking until (if) I manage to move up the levels!

F_Ivanovic

Disagree with Chris this time and think c-betting here is fine. In fact I'd prefer checking with KQ with a heart. Reason being is flop is really dry and we block some combos of KJ and QJ and we have some outs against Jx (except KJ and QJ) Plus we can barrel on T/A turns. I would check all my non Ax FD hands though and maybe give up with stuff like 7c8c. So I don't think we need be betting too much here just because we bet this hand.