What d you do in my oppos position here?

DOHHHHHHH

I was gnna post this by talking you through the hand then asking for an opinion, but putting the hand history up is easier, please dnt be results orientated. The play I wanna discuss is my opponents. As I was playing the hand, I wastalking to my mate about the move my oppo made, and I personally hated it, I wont go into why. My mate however, thought it wasn't such a bad move, n we dont often disagree, so I thought Id post it and see what others would have done...here goes...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SEVEN777	Small blind		50.00	50.00	5487.50
gibbsey1	Big blind		100.00	150.00	1765.00
	Your hole cards	K K
kornrule12	Fold
Beebler31	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		300.00	450.00	3785.00
boon10	All-in		5668.75	6118.75	0.00
SEVEN777	Fold
gibbsey1	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	All-in		3785.00	9903.75	0.00
boon10	Unmatched bet		1583.75	8320.00	1583.75
DOHHHHHHH	Show	K K
boon10	Show	J J
Flop
		3 3 Q
Turn
		10
River
		7
DOHHHHHHH	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 3s	8320.00		8320.00

Ive put the full hand history in so you can grasp the blinds/stack sizes etc, Should really delete my hand but dont wanna mess the whole thing up, just try and ignore my hand when you're making your decision. I feel pretty strongly about the way he's played this, but we'll see. Thanx!

DOHH

EDIT - THATS MEANT TO BE 1.5K sri..oh and must add Ive just been moved to this table...n not really done anything yet.

dav1964

IM ONLY FLAT CALLING THIS ONE MYSELF AS I WANNA SEE THE FLOP B4 I COMMIT MY TOURNY.ALSO IF IT IS A LOW FLOP AND THEN YOU SHOVE AT ME I COULD STILL LOSE ALL AS I MAY PUT YOU ON AK OR AQ.dav

phil12uk

What tourney was it m8?

DOHHHHHHH

Last nights doublestack....my fave turny structure....

Dudeskin8

3x raise isn't anything special, but to be safe I'd flat call and see a flop. He is essentially putting in 56 big blinds here in the hope you have 10's and below or AJo and will make a stupid call. If he had QQ definitly a re- raise but still wouldn't push. Only leave that to top two myself.

Also he has the button which gives him even more power on the flop if you showed any weakness. (not knowing the had kings) All round very foolish move this early in the tourney.

TommyD

I voted for raise to 15k (which I assume is meant to be 1.5k).  I would actually raise to an even 1000.  If I was the villain I would want to define your hand Dohhhhhh without committing my stack to the hand.

A raise to 1k would look a lot stronger than his all in.  By going all in every hand you want to call should fold and then you're left with AA, KK, AK and from certain players AQ & QQ.  The only benefit would be someone with Queens may fold (very player dependant, not sure how much the villain knows about your game).

My raise should get flatted by QQ downwards, re-raised by AA, KK and maybe AK and several other marginal holdings will fold so I win without showdown (a lovely result for jacks in a lot of cases).

Seagull158

I'm defo not pushing allin PF. I'd be raising it up 1200 and looking to see the flop. What would you do then, call my raise?

lJAMESl

He should be flatting your raise here pre antes, he has 60 big blinds with plenty of play and we are in the 2nd blind level. He couldn't of played it any worse every hand he beats folds and every hand that beats him calls.

phil12uk

Im flatting pre m8 and then playing in position throughout hand. Results based, the Q isnt gonna help me continue with JJ. Knowing u though, it could be one of those times where ur rep has earned u a nice pot

POKERTREV

Hi Doh.
This early in the tourny & with a raise already on the table pre-flop I want to define your hand, A raise this size pre-flop tells me you may have KK, QQ, AK, AQ and at the very least I am up against 1010.

Thinking i'm already behind at this stage, I would flat call to see the flop and the way I would play the hand out next would be very dependant on the flop and your next move. If the flop is not in my favour and you push I am definately folding.

First thought in my brain thou when I have JJ is - "Put the Breaks on - They are gonna get beat lol"

Seagull158

In Response to Re: What d you do in my oppos position here?:

Hi Doh. This early in the tourny & with a raise already on the table pre-flop I want to define your hand, A raise this size pre-flop tells me you may have KK, QQ, AK, AQ and at the very least I am up against 1010. Thinking i'm already behind at this stage, I would flat call to see the flop and the way I would play the hand out next would be very dependant on the flop and your next move. If the flop is not in my favour and you push I am definately folding. First thought in my brain thou when I have JJ is - "Put the Breaks on - They are gonna get beat lol"
Posted by POKERTREV

I've just lost twice in 10 minutes with KK. They aren't so hot either!!!

phil12uk

I had a similar position earlier with JJ. Obviously the turn is the money card but by not over valuing JJ pre i havent got myself into major trouble and used my position to control how much I put into the pot whilst behind.

vil	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£49.75
rinogun	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£22.05
	Your hole cards	J J
DOUBLEDEEZ	Fold
John_Banks	Fold
KingsRgr8	Fold
phil12uk	Raise		£2.00	£2.75	£61.87
vil	Raise		£4.75	£7.50	£45.00
rinogun	Fold
phil12uk	Call		£3.00	£10.50	£58.87
Flop
		2 Q 7
vil	Bet		£5.50	£16.00	£39.50
phil12uk	Call		£5.50	£21.50	£53.37
Turn
		J
vil	Bet		£8.00	£29.50	£31.50
phil12uk	Call		£8.00	£37.50	£45.37
River
		8
vil	Bet		£10.00	£47.50	£21.50
phil12uk	Raise		£38.75	£86.25	£6.62
vil	All-in		£21.50	£107.75	£0.00
phil12uk	Unmatched bet		£7.25	£100.50	£13.87
vil	Show	Q A
phil12uk	Show	J J
phil12uk	Win	Three Jacks	£98.70		£112.57

pod1

he may have seen the 3x raise as weak and wanted to put the onus back on you, a bit ott on re raise mind!!. i dont think he wants to see flop any q k a has the onus is back on him. 

POKERTREV

In Response to Re: What d you do in my oppos position here?:

In Response to Re: What d you do in my oppos position here? : I've just lost twice in 10 minutes with KK. They aren't so hot either!!!
Posted by Seagull158

Your absolutely right seagul lol - they are only hot as a starting hand this is why I am flat calling to the flop.

Althogh I think you beat me with them last night lol. 

Talon

  Very difficult to vote on this one because it is possible to argue for all 3 cases. If you flat call then you hope to hit the flop and then get paid, but then in this situation if 3 unders come in you will go bust anyway. A raise to 1.5k asks the question back but too many people refuse to believe the answers in this situation and would call a shove at this point. The reraise allin is a move that is begging not to be called because any caller has us beat or in a race at best. I believe that the allin was just to take the pot down there and then and not be forced to play down the streets with a hand that virtually all people find very hard to play.

   The main problem with JJ is that a Q,K or A will be on the flop about 50% of the time and if one arrives then you no longer know where you are in the hand. For me i guess it would be a flat call and hope the flop treats us kindly. For me JJ is Monty Python's King Arthur  :  CHARGE    RUN AWAY

GREGHOGG

Hi Dohhhhhhh

My honest opinion is that this reshove here is not terrible because he has more chips and is putting pressure on. If you do not have a mega premium here you are folding, and if i was the hero I would find it difficult to call with AJ, AQ, or even 77, and he therefore picks up your raise and the blinds.

A 3X raise from the cut off does look a bit steally. However, as you are new to the table and presuming he has no previous notes etc, then the safest option is a flat call. However, a smallish raise would normally be my preferred option.

The shove is a gambley play, risky, and its agro, and it a potential stack builder, however, its also a potential way to donk off half your stack.

Personally, ive been trying to keep pots smaller and under control cos at the moment im not winning many races. But the shove monkey within me occasionally wants to be a bit mad and make reshoves like the one in question. Vs a new player is a way of saying look, im the boss on the table and i have position, so dont steal, ok!

So in summary, i dont know if its good or bad, but its certainly not terrible.

Hoggers

FlashFlush

Id say raise to 1.5k, if you then re-pop all in he should fold, if you smooth then on that flop I think all the chips go in anyway.

Its the standard rookie move, I have a pocket pair don't really wont to see a flop so ill go all in.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: What d you do in my oppos position here?:

Id say raise to 1.5k, if you then re-pop all in he should fold, if you smooth then on that flop I think all the chips go in anyway. Its the standard rookie move, I have a pocket pair don't really wont to see a flop so ill go all in.
Posted by FlashFlush

Its super advanced level 52 shove monkey strategy:)

well thats what i tell my self

pod1

well i voted all in, does that make me a bad player??

KnackersYa

Personally, I'm leaning towards the flat call. Esentially playing JJ to set mine. If overcards come on the flop, you get out of the way cheap.

The smallish raise is only good if you listen to what the ensuing action tells you (I'm assuming that Dohh would re-pop at this stage). If you get out of the way after getting your answer, good on ya but you've put more chips in than you need.

All-in - No merit whatsoever. At best you're racing, at worst you're drawing to 2 cards.

BlackFish3

i would raise to 900 and fold to a reraise from you. I like to define the hand with JJ and i assume i am good preflop if you flat my reraise. He was just another player to scared to play JJ post flop and panic shoved.