playing small pocket pairs and suited connectors

craigcu12

the cash tables i'm playing at the minute are very passive, i would like to try and find a different table but it seems to me like almost every table is like this, i watched the master cash sessions today and they too showed lots of people frequently checking hands that should be getting value bet.

my thery is these players fall into the fit or fold type fish, if a bet gets made in there eyes it means the person who has did that bet will have hit top pair or better, so as they spend so much doing limps and chasing flush draws they don't want people to fold a hand they do have so they'll ch call the street it hits and if it's the river it came on then they'll do a very weak bet to start with.

as small pocket pairs have very little equity i'm thinking it will be a question on weather or not to just not play them much when it's me who is caller and the other player is weak and passive?
for instance i would have expected any one who 3bets pre to do a cbet IP on this A high flop but this person decided to just Ch,
my main concern is weather or not this could create a loss long term knowing that for every 90p i win i also fold 60p when them others missed?
they might have an AA or KK but if they don't have a premium pair i'm unlikely to see them cbet as they will need to hit that A, also when they do it's likely to be a weak bet as either the cbet bluff or they had hit.
(this player himself is not the type i'm refering too but it has given me a good hand to use as an explanation of what i'm talking about

craigcu12	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.95
yoda138	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£12.87
	Your hole cards	3 3
Matt237	Fold
POKEY2011	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£30.27
x	Raise		£1.05	£1.50	£18.95
goldnballz	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£1.00	£2.50	£18.95
yoda138	Fold
POKEY2011	Call		£0.75	£3.25	£29.52
Flop
		A 9 3
craigcu12	Check
POKEY2011	Check
x	Check
Turn
		5
craigcu12	Bet		£1.80	£5.05	£17.15
POKEY2011	Fold
x	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£3.00		£20.15
craigcu12	Return		£1.80	£0.25	£21.95

suited connectors do have some equity so these will allows me to steal pots away from those without good hands whilst i will still have some outs when called by a good hand.
they might Ch the flop they might do weak bets but what i do know is they have very small range of aggressive hands, whilst the small pairs will be a risk the suited connectors and or draws will still have good equity if raised,
Q.hands such as set two pair striaght or TPTK i am sure will call but against fish on alot of occasions they will have middle pairs A high draws even runner runner draws, as these are all likely to still be ahead of me i would hate them too be making a call on the turn and as the TPTK two pairs sets all might fold when a straight or surely a flush did come i want to try getting all the money in ready and waiting.
what is the best line to take on flops and should i ship it on the turn

wudibluff	Big blind		£0.20	£0.20	£55.69
	Your hole cards	7 8
fish	Raise		£0.80	£1.00	£35.00
POKEY2011	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£0.80	£1.80	£40.10
wudibluff	Fold
Flop
		J 5 7
fish	Bet		£0.90	£2.70	£34.10
craigcu12	Call		£0.90	£3.60	£39.20
Turn
		10
fish	Bet		£2.70	£6.30	£31.40
craigcu12	Call		£2.70	£9.00	£36.50
River
		6
fish	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£6.80	£15.80	£29.70
fish	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£8.55		£38.25
craigcu12	Return		£6.80	£0.45	£45.05

Enut	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£23.87
fish	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£15.92
	Your hole cards	5 6
cars9210	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£5.41
craigcu12	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£23.56
spik1966	Fold
Enut	Call		£0.10	£0.80	£23.77
fish	Raise		£0.80	£1.60	£15.12
cars9210	Fold
craigcu12	Call		£0.80	£2.40	£22.76
Enut	Call		£0.80	£3.20	£22.97
Flop
		3 4 Q
Enut	Check
fish	Bet		£2.40	£5.60	£12.72
craigcu12	Call		£2.40	£8.00	£20.36
Enut	Fold
Turn
		A
fish	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£5.20	£13.20	£15.16
fish	Call		£5.20	£18.40	£7.52
River
		4
fish	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£8.40	£26.80	£6.76
ish	Fold
craigcu12	Muck
craigcu12	Win		£17.48		£24.24

stevemug2	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£26.88
VINEY73	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£20.68
	Your hole cards	4 6
westslay23	Fold
Ice_Tiger	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£18.38
POKEY2011	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£21.33
stevemug2	Call		£0.25	£1.00	£26.63
VINEY73	Call		£0.20	£1.20	£20.48
Flop
		3 K 4
stevemug2	Check
VINEY73	Check
craigcu12	Bet		£0.50	£1.70	£17.88
POKEY2011	Fold
stevemug2	Call		£0.50	£2.20	£26.13
VINEY73	Fold
Turn
		5
stevemug2	Bet		£1.65	£3.85	£24.48
craigcu12	Call		£1.65	£5.50	£16.23
River
		9
stevemug2	Check
craigcu12	Check
stevemug2	Show	J J
craigcu12	Muck	4 6
stevemug2	Win	Pair of Jacks	£5.08		£29.56

shakinaces

Just reference to hand 1, for some of the reasons you mention I'm not sure there is value in calling a 3 bet from the blinds in these spots.

You've got the original raiser still to act behind you and if they 4b when any degree of regularity then you will be leaking money from calling 3b/folding to 4b.  With particularly small pairs like 33, you are also going to have to factor in more occasions where you will end up set over set, or FH over FH and end up losing a big pot (probably whole stack).

Being OOP exacerbates things because you also aren't easily able to bluff if they do shut down and therefore only have one way of winning the pot.

For me, I'm happy to (in the main) save the small pairs (22-55) for multiway pots with a single raise, so that I at least maximise my implied odds for when I do hit my set and don't get outdrawn. In position I'm more happy to play them for the added value I can get for turning them into bluffs.

ps where are these passive tables?  Lately I keep seeming to sit with a mixture of maniacs and players frequently 3b/4b me!

Lambert180

Imo just stop trying to find a set way you should play each hand, there is no golden rule about how to play a particular hand strength. You're not gonna play top set the same against all types of opponents or on all different sorts of boards.

Put people on ranges and go from there in terms of what action yuo make and the sizing you choose.

craigcu12

i had a look at my hand history today and that does show evidence of lots of aggression, the main times the tables were passive were during the master cash sessions which are on TV.

maybe it's these LAGs that are the bigger issue for set mining not passive players. yesterday i had 44 called a min raise, the flop was J1010 the open raiser does a Ch, turn was an A he Ch again, the river came 4 so i now hit my set, bet £2 the player called and turned A4o. in the afternoon a lag called a open raise that someone had made, i had Ac10c so 3bet he calls this, flop comes 7c4s4d he decides to ship £8.40 straight away and turns 66.

my biggest wins at the minute are coming from premium pairs and semi bluffs with good euqilty.

Phantom66

Hi Craig I think we shared a Mastercash table or 2 for a while yesterday - dont remember any big clashes with you and I hope I wasnt one of the passive ones as I certainly wasnt trying to be!

The tables I was on had 2/3 passive players which was great as they also knew how to fold which made for a lot of medium pots with no hand required.

In terms of small pairs/suited connectors I think generally advice is be aggro with them to give yourself 2 chances of winning with them - bluff or hit big.

Calling to set mine can work in cash, but I would much rather raise with my entire range - until any regs to my left start reraising me every hand and I'll adjust by mixing in some calls or 4 betting. 4 betting doesnt seem to be needed much at 10nl though.

In general I try and only play connectors in position, but I'll take a punt with a small pair out of position - if I do I try to raise/reraise and lead the betting.

Wondering if that is sound thinking or not?

Lambert180

"my biggest wins at the minute are coming from premium pairs and semi bluffs with good euqilty."

You realise this is stating the absolute obvious? It's not at the minute, it's poker, you're always gonna win the most money by a country mile with premium pairs and big draws will always be good. It's like saying "I've noticed recently that I tend to win the most money when I have AA"

As I said in my first reply, you gotta think about the whole situation every single time, position of you and villian, villian's range, how they play postflop, etc. I dunno if there are many/any at 10NL cos it's been a while since I played there but there are definitely people I play against where it's not good to just set-mine as a standard 100% of the time. Some people are just SO tight postflop that if we're peeling OOP purely to set-mine then we're gonna struggle too much to get paid enough to make it +EV. It's hard enough to get paid OOP cos you don't have control over the pot. You probably can't gain control of the pot against this type cos a c/r at any point
 is gonna fold out pretty much everything you beat, and that type of player will end up pot controlling/checking back streets unless very strong. Plus a lot of the time they'll just go straight into check/fold mode.

So against a massive nit, if they open UTG they'll have a vv narrow/strong range so it's a good spot for us to setmine, ideally if we're not in the blinds so we have position. Change it a bit though and a massive nit opens the BTN and we're in the blinds, it's a pretty bad spot to setmine for all the reasons I've mentioned above... cos it's the button they've opened from even a nit will be opening a bit wider there, but they're still gonna be nitty postflop and will be just check/giving up straight away a lot, pot controlling lots etc, so you're really gonna struggle to win a decent pot on the odd time you flop a set.

That's only 1 example, but just think about ranges right from the get go and how that affects how you play the hand.