Was this a Mistake MTT hand

stuarty117

Just been put out of the 2.20 UKOPS speed rebuy. Was going along very nicely indeed then this happened.

I thought is I win this hand I am chip leader, this is my opportunity.

Thinking back now perhaps a little too hasty. 30 bigs but going up a level soon.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
chris1953	Small blind		200.00	200.00	6415.00
A	Big blind		400.00	600.00	8025.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
B	Raise		800.00	1400.00	15595.00
dokker	Fold
stuarty117	Call		800.00	2200.00	12925.00
CraigSG1	Fold
chris1953	Call		600.00	2800.00	5815.00
A	All-in		8025.00	10825.00	0.00
B	All-in		15595.00	26420.00	0.00
stuarty117	All-in		12925.00	39345.00	0.00
chris1953	Fold
B	Unmatched bet		2670.00	36675.00	2670.00
A	Show	Q A
B	Show	K K
stuarty117	Show	Q Q
Flop
		9 10 4
Turn
		3
River
		2
B	Win	Pair of Kings	36675.00

RLT16

I think you should be raising player b's original bet, once you have done that and seen player A re raise you all in and player B also shove i think its a pretty easy fold to make and wait for a better spot.

hhyftrftdr

This is actually a really tricky spot.

Assuming we've not 3bet to induce a shove from the blinds, I do like this play. Player A's range is potentially quite wide, Player B's reshipping range to isolate can include 1010, JJ and AK/AQs....We are pretty underrepped as well.....Think JJ is a sigh fold, KK snap call and QQ right in the middle.

I'm gonna have to sit on the fence, can't fault calling and going for it, but also can't fault letting it go. Think the general table flow and in game dynamics would make my decision for me. Possibly lean towards a call with it being a speed tournament.

Lambert180

After choosing to flat pre intially then I'd deffo GII now. I'd 3bet pre myself personally unless we got a lot of aggro people likely to squeeze behind.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

I think you should be raising player b's original bet, once you have done that and seen player A re raise you all in and player B also shove i think its a pretty easy fold to make and wait for a better spot.
Posted by RLT16

This, 3 bet for sure, if AQ 4 bet jams, KK 5 bet Jams, we can just fold.

Defo 3 bet.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : This, 3 bet for sure, if AQ 4 bet jams, KK 5 bet Jams, we can just fold. Defo 3 bet.
Posted by LARSON7

Why 3bet for sure?

By calling, and if we have active blinds to act behind, we keep their 3bet jamming range wider, and in turn the original raisers iso 4bet jamming range that little bit wider too.

Play has worked a treat, very unfortunate to walk into a hand better than QQ.

stuarty117

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : Why 3bet for sure? By calling, and if we have active blinds to act behind, we keep their 3bet jamming range wider, and in turn the original raisers iso 4bet jamming range that little bit wider too. Play has worked a treat, very unfortunate to walk into a hand better than QQ.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

This is exactly the strategy i was leaning towards.

I think i was just unlucky to be up against KK. Guy was raising alot and other guy had shoved a couple of hands previous witha  PP.

I thought for sure i was 50/50 at least to nearly treble up. 

I could have folded and waited but would i be kicking myself if it was say , AQ and JJ or something or another PP

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : Why 3bet for sure? By calling, and if we have active blinds to act behind, we keep their 3bet jamming range wider, and in turn the original raisers iso 4bet jamming range that little bit wider too. Play has worked a treat, very unfortunate to walk into a hand better than QQ.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Im in the 3 bet pre camp. The chance of the (possibly) active blinds reshoving verses playing QQ possibly four/five ways leans towards more chance of it being a multiway spot with us then having very difficult decisions post flop.

I think you should be trying to make as many of your decisions as easy as possible. 

Besides, if the blinds where going to reshove anyway, they are still going to do it with a lot of hands so we may still get it heads up. But by the original raiser then reshoving that narrors there range down a lot.

The way you played it I think you do have to call as we are well under repped.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : This is exactly the strategy i was leaning towards. I think i was just unlucky to be up against KK. Guy was raising alot and other guy had shoved a couple of hands previous witha  PP. I thought for sure i was 50/50 at least to nearly treble up.  I could have folded and waited but would i be kicking myself if it was say , AQ and JJ or something or another PP
Posted by stuarty117

Others may not, but I love it Stuart. It requires a certain criteria to pull it off; active players to act behind/in the blinds with pushable stacks, and it looks like you had it. I posted a hand here recently from the Roller, it was raised UTG and called on the button, action on me in the BB with 10s and 20bb, the verdict was that it was an easy 3bet jam with all the money in the middle.....button had KK, gg me. Had the button 3bet I'd have folded 1010. Likewise, had you 3bet then AQ probably folds.

Craig, having position means I'm not too concerned if this does go multiway. Obviously sometimes we'll let in A5 in the blinds and they'll outflop us, but often people will peel the J9 type hands and then go crazy on a 9 high board. We can proceed with caution on dangerous flops with our positional advantage should the hand go multiway.

CraigSG1

I agree about position, but it could easily go J92 against the J9 player and then what? Or on same flop we have KJ bet, AJ reraise and what do we do then? Are we against a set/draw or the J high hands? Flawed thinking by me, i dont know. 

Its hard to say when your not involved in the table dynamic.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

I agree about position, but it could easily go J92 against the J9 player and then what? Or on same flop we have KJ bet, AJ reraise and what do we do then? Are we against a set/draw or the J high hands? Flawed thinking by me, i dont know.  Its hard to say when your not involved in the table dynamic.
Posted by CraigSG1

Yeah, going multiway isn't ideal, but having the button offsets this somewhat. We'll just have to treat any flop accordingly. It is a risky play, and as said requires a certain criteria set to make it effective, but when it works it can work a treat.

Another day, AQ 3bet jams, original raiser has to fold and we snap with QQ, happy days.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Last night late on in a DTD game, I didn't 3bet KK after an early position open, and was delighted when someone squeeze raised in the blinds....he had AA, gg me. The other week in a BH, I overlimped QQ on the button to try and induce a shove from Mr 12bb in the SB, he didn't fall for it but the large stack in the BB open shoved 77, wp me

Horses for courses, but it's just a different way of approaching a premium hand instead of auto thinking 'I have QQ, I must 3bet'.

CraigSG1

I get what you are saying and as I move up I will adapt. But at my level its just too much of a profitable play not to 3 bet QQ

I know I will need to adjust small aspects so as not to be so readable. 

But also, I should of mentioned earlier, in a turbo/faster blind structure I feel you need to build the pot early with premiums as you will get so many ppl who love there pretty J9s etc and wont fold or will jam anyway. People play way to fast in turbo's in my opinion.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

I get what you are saying and as I move up I will adapt. But at my level its just too much of a profitable play not to 3 bet QQ I know I will need to adjust small aspects so as not to be so readable.  But also, I should of mentioned earlier, in a turbo/faster blind structure I feel you need to build the pot early with premiums as you will get so many ppl who love there pretty J9s etc and wont fold or will jam anyway. People play way to fast in turbo's in my opinion.
Posted by CraigSG1

If people are playing marginal hands fast, is this not even more of a reason to play a premium hand a bit more sneakily?

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : If people are playing marginal hands fast, is this not even more of a reason to play a premium hand a bit more sneakily?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

You get nothing when they whiff and if they do pick up something its easier to get your stack in. No?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand:

In Response to Re: Was this a Mistake MTT hand : You get nothing when they whiff and if they do pick up something its easier to get your stack in. No?
Posted by CraigSG1

Both blinds are playing 20bb or less, so their only real option is fold or jam. If they have 77 they probably jam as played. If they have 77 they probably fold to a button 3bet as they now have minimal fold equity. We can potentially get a blind to stack off light here as played. 3betting means its gonna have to be a cold deck to play for stacks pre flop, unless one of them spews.

Good for range balancing as well. If we only ever call J10s, 66 etc and only ever 3bet JJ/AQs +, then we are playing maybe a little too face up. It's good to mix things up later on in tournaments.

CraigSG1

All good thoughts, thanks.