General MTT Question

stuarty117

When is the best time to C-bet or just check

E.G.

Early on you have AK and raise and totally miss the flop say 962 flops

What do you do. For me it usually depends on the opponent and notes like if they are weak or not, and how many are in the pot. Like if everyone calls it would be harder to get the C-bet through.

Am i correct in thinking that, does checking show weakness or are you going to save chips in long run.

Hopefully this makes sense

Stuarty117

MattBates

We shouldn't blinding c bet all of the time and it will save chips in the long run if we don't c-bet all the time.

There are however so many factors to consider about when and when not to c bet.

Does flop hit us (consider our range as opposed to just considering our hand) more than our opponents
Does our hand have a lot of backdoor outs that we can fire again on on the turn. Eg 2 overs and backdoor flush and straight outs means we can fire flop and have a decent number of good turn cards whereas firing with say 22 isn't great as there is only 2 cards that improve us.
Number of opponents (getting a c bet through 6 way to the flop is a lot harder than 1 oppo)
Our stack size (if we are likely to need to fire a couple of times can our stack take that or are we risking too much of it)
Our views on our opponents (who likely are they to float us/bluff raise etc)

These factors (and probably a load of others which I have forgot) also vary our c bet sizing too. Overall it is an experience thing which tells us whats best to do both in terms of sizing and whether to c bet.

Matt

stuarty117

In Response to Re: General MTT Question:

We shouldn't blinding c bet all of the time and it will save chips in the long run if we don't c-bet all the time. There are however so many factors to consider about when and when not to c bet. Does flop hit us (consider our range as opposed to just considering our hand) more than our opponents Does our hand have a lot of backdoor outs that we can fire again on on the turn. Eg 2 overs and backdoor flush and straight outs means we can fire flop and have a decent number of good turn cards whereas firing with say 22 isn't great as there is only 2 cards that improve us. Number of opponents (getting a c bet through 6 way to the flop is a lot harder than 1 oppo) Our stack size (if we are likely to need to fire a couple of times can our stack take that or are we risking too much of it) Our views on our opponents (who likely are they to float us/bluff raise etc) These factors (and probably a load of others which I have forgot) also vary our c bet sizing too. Overall it is an experience thing which tells us whats best to do both in terms of sizing and whether to c bet. Matt
Posted by MattBates

Thankyou very much Matt great post

Alot to think about, trying to improve my MTTs

neil1970

In Response to Re: General MTT Question:

We shouldn't blinding c bet all of the time and it will save chips in the long run if we don't c-bet all the time. There are however so many factors to consider about when and when not to c bet. Does flop hit us (consider our range as opposed to just considering our hand) more than our opponents Does our hand have a lot of backdoor outs that we can fire again on on the turn. Eg 2 overs and backdoor flush and straight outs means we can fire flop and have a decent number of good turn cards whereas firing with say 22 isn't great as there is only 2 cards that improve us. Number of opponents (getting a c bet through 6 way to the flop is a lot harder than 1 oppo) Our stack size (if we are likely to need to fire a couple of times can our stack take that or are we risking too much of it) Our views on our opponents (who likely are they to float us/bluff raise etc) These factors (and probably a load of others which I have forgot) also vary our c bet sizing too. Overall it is an experience thing which tells us whats best to do both in terms of sizing and whether to c bet. Matt
Posted by MattBates

Not much more to add from what matt has already said but what ive highlighted above i think is very important...

BigBluster

In Response to General MTT Question:

When is the best time to C-bet or just check E.G. Early on you have AK and raise and totally miss the flop say 962 flops What do you do. For me it usually depends on the opponent and notes like if they are weak or not, and how many are in the pot. Like if everyone calls it would be harder to get the C-bet through. Am i correct in thinking that, does checking show weakness or are you going to save chips in long run. Hopefully this makes sense Stuarty117
Posted by stuarty117

You can't just check when you miss and bet when you hit as even the most unobservant player will pick up on this (though playing 'fit-or-fold' may well be correct in some circumstances). However, c-betting 100% of the time is a drain of precious chips, inflates the pot too much and is just as easily seen through. Most players on skybet c-bet 100% of the time and I'm convinced this is wrong.

Have you considered check-raising with AK in this situation (assumed to be OOP and against 1 opponent)? This is worth doing when the stacks are effectively quite deep as it protects you on future hands - it signals to the entire table, not just the opponent, that a check doesn't necessarily mean that you're weak - and doesn't jeopardise too many chips. 90% of the time the CR will take down the pot, but if called you just check the turn (the villain won't bet out to your turn check after you've check-raised the flop, but if he does you just go away) and take the free card on the river. 

Check-raising doesn't actually need to work even though I say that it will the vast majority of the time - the signal and the fact that the whole table sees it is more important.

MattBates

In Response to Re: General MTT Question:

In Response to General MTT Question : You can't just check when you miss and bet when you hit as even the most unobservant player will pick up on this (though playing 'fit-or-fold' may well be correct in some circumstances). However, c-betting 100% of the time is a drain of precious chips, inflates the pot too much and is just as easily seen through. Most players on skybet c-bet 100% of the time and I'm convinced this is wrong. Have you considered check-raising with AK in this situation (assumed to be OOP and against 1 opponent)? This is worth doing when the stacks are effectively quite deep as it protects you on future hands - it signals to the entire table, not just the opponent, that a check doesn't necessarily mean that you're weak - and doesn't jeopardise too many chips. 90% of the time the CR will take down the pot, but if called you just check the turn (the villain won't bet out to your turn check after you've check-raised the flop, but if he does you just go away) and take the free card on the river.  Check-raising doesn't actually need to work even though I say that it will the vast majority of the time - the signal and the fact that the whole table sees it is more important.
Posted by BigBluster

What are we repping through?

BigBluster

In Response to Re: General MTT Question:

In Response to Re: General MTT Question : What are we repping through?
Posted by MattBates

A pair, 9s through aces. Unfortunately Matt, you're one of the 10% it wouldn't work against!

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: General MTT Question:

In Response to Re: General MTT Question : A pair, 9s through aces. Unfortunately Matt, you're one of the 10% it wouldn't work against!
Posted by BigBluster

You're not repping that whatsoever.

Stu, I would advise against random check raises with AK. This is probably the worst thing you could do if both stacks are deep!

Nuggy962

Depends on posistion also

If you have posistion a hand like AK, a c bet is great as even if called you will get to see turn and river for that one c bet, keeps pot small and you see all 5 cards. It is likely if you continued flop they will check turn meanjng river is free for you.

pre flop action will determine the c bet action as well. 3 betting will give your precieced range a boost so flops with A's and K,s suit a c bet, similar a low flop as you described may do the job.

one word of advise I would say with a hand like AK in an MTT

Early stage not need to marry the hand if miss. You raise to 3BB with 50bb behind and miss, no big deal slowing down.

 I see so many people bust early days with AK - AJ KQ,s and medium pocket pairs. And normally this occurs as they 3 bet pre, c bet and suddenly find a pot is committing them to a call with just a pair.

run well

TeddyBloat

AK is a great semi-bluff post flop after you raise pre [flop dependant, obviously]

its good from exploitative and balance stand points.

we will often look to barrel air on an Ace turn as it hits our range , so it's good to actually have that Ace after cbetting from a balance point of view. and also because hitting top-pair top kicker is good when villain may think we are just repping the ace

also King-high forms a big part of the average villains pure float range on dry low textures, so having the best king in the deck can be great in that senario.

we can always slow down after cbetting and we have showdown value v missed draws, floats etc whenever we want to take it.

a great hand to have in our semi-bluff range basically.