How long do you wait? Or do you wait?

ShaunyT

So, you've started a MTT. You sit there, defend your blinds, steal a few, but don't really get any decent hands or decent spots to bluff. The levels start to pass and before you know it you have a 20bb stack. Now you feel that this is still a playable stack but the guys up near the CL have 60-80bb stacks, so if you have any hope of making the FT and taking it down you have to start getting it in. 

 I know it's an age old debate, see more flops early vs play tight you don't need to get involved. But if you simply don't get good hands/spots is it better to bluff more to keep a 30 to 40bb stack, or simply wait it out for an hour or so then start finding spots to jam?

Any and all opinions welcome ��

Glenelg

I feel ya pain bro!  If I knew the answer I'd FT more Mtt's!  With me it depends on the dynamic of the table, but more importantly the tourney.  If they are dropping like flies, i feel patience is the key.  Rail a few of  the REALLY good MTT players on Sky and you'll see what I mean.  Table-wise the players usually fall into a few categories...the aggro, the I'm gonna ladder no matter what ,  the  I shove a lot (it's up to you to guess when I have a monster!), the I'll limp with small PP and If you let me I'll hit, oh and ME!  

Edit: sorry meant to say the key is working out who's who!   But you knew that right?

Lambert180

How long is a piece of string. Could write a very long reply but here's just a few thoughts....

1) Sometimes you are can play tournaments where you do just get no spots at all for a long time and end up in this stage but most people are too tight so they think they've had no spots at all when really they've just missed loads without realising it.

2) Ignore what stacks the CLs have got, it really is totally irrelevant. Same goes for if you're 20th out of 60 or 50th out of 60, don't worry about, all that matters is how many BBs you got. It's a big mistake to think 'I got 20bb and CL got 70bb, so I need to double up soon', you don't. No matter what stage it is, all you can/should do is just play your own stack size the best way you can.

3) Personally I'm definitely in the camp of playing lots of pots early. It's table dependent, i.e. if you got a really aggro table then it's best to tighten up a bit but this is quite rare on Sky imo, more often than not people just like calling too much so my default would be to get stuck in. This is one of the main benefits of using smaller sizings preflop and postflop, it just allows for lots more play down the streets, and it allows you to lose multiple pots without leaving yourself a tiny stack.. How loose you wanna be depends a lot on how good you are postflop too.

4) There's a lot more play with 20bb than just 'do I get it in pre or not'. 20bb is loads, there's plenty of room to raise/fold, even room to 3b/fold against the right people. There's room to have opened, cbet and not be committed etc.

5) Don't force it. If you have no spots to take, then you have no spots to take, you can only do the best with the situations you're given. If a good spot comes up, then it's a good spot regardless of whether you have 20bb or 50bb, don't start taking wreckless gambles just cos you feel like your stack is shorter than most, and don't start passing up spots just cos you think you're comfortable as it is.

ShaunyT

Thanks for the responses.

Just to pick up on a couple of things you've said Lambo:

When you say about playing more pots early and smaller bet sizing, given the fact I play mainly low stakes BH's and people will call min raises with ANYTHING, lets say i'm OTB with 10 9 suited and theres a limper, if I min raise im pretty sure both blinds and the limper call, then I have literally no idea where I am. I know implied odds could be massive if I hit the flop hard and I do have position, but if I 4x raise to punish the limper, in my experience, most of the time the blinds will fold and the limper will probably still call and I can rep really strong, again I would expect it to go c/f or c/c c/f on the turn. Although i do appreciate I can min raise fold a lot more often.

Secondly, if 20bb is loads, what isn't? when is it time to start sticking it in? (oooo er mrs) 15bb? 10bb?

On another note, keep up with the diary mate. Long time reader.

DrRunGood

In Response to Re: How long do you wait? Or do you wait?:

Thanks for the responses. Just to pick up on a couple of things you've said Lambo: When you say about playing more pots early and smaller bet sizing, given the fact I play mainly low stakes BH's and people will call min raises with ANYTHING, lets say i'm OTB with 10 9 suited and theres a limper, if I min raise im pretty sure both blinds and the limper call, then I have literally no idea where I am. I know implied odds could be massive if I hit the flop hard and I do have position, but if I 4x raise to punish the limper, in my experience, most of the time the blinds will fold and the limper will probably still call and I can rep really strong, again I would expect it to go c/f or c/c c/f on the turn. Although i do appreciate I can min raise fold a lot more often. Secondly, if 20bb is loads, what isn't? when is it time to start sticking it in? (oooo er mrs) 15bb? 10bb? On another note, keep up with the diary mate. Long time reader.
Posted by ShaunyT

Hi good original question followed by a great response form lambert180 (his advice is always good guys) but id like to jump in here and answer before lambert does steal his glory lol. Ok the situation you bring up is a good hand to use as it is very common. You have 9 10 suited otb with 1 limper you don't have to min raise, I kow lambert said bet less pre and post to apply pressure and hes correct but get this guys THERE IS NO STANDARD MOVE IN POKER!!!!! every situation is independent and will require a different approach. So you read your table as passive and assume sb and bb will call along with the limper so ask yourself what will you then do?
1. well you can either fold if you aint comfy going 4 way to a flop.
2. you can judge what the folding point is for 1,2, or all 3 players and bet what is needed.
3. you limp yourself as you will see hand 4 way without risking an extra blind that will make no difference to the outcome

I personally would raise 3 - 3.5x to get out 1 or 2 of the blinds and take up position with the limper who will most prob call but be aware they limp called so they are prepared to hit or fold. Go to the flop judge by the board texture if it will hit your opponents range most possibly he has a similar hand as yourself connectors or suited connectors or a random ace. when flop comes if checked to you I would put in a cbet lets assume there is 7.5bb in the pot put in a cbet of around 3bb and you will most likely see a fold as the player will only call if he hits or has a draw so look to see if there is any draws. if you get reraised you should know you are beat and fold. so pre and post flop you are risking 6 bb in a common spot early in a tourney where you will prob be sitting 50bb plus
just remember tho no matter outcome of the hand pay attention of how the player played so if the situation comes up again later in the game when blinds are bigger you will know whats coming and adjust to win the hand

thanks DrRunGood

ShaunyT

In Response to Re: How long do you wait? Or do you wait?:

In Response to Re: How long do you wait? Or do you wait? : Hi good original question followed by a great response form lambert180 (his advice is always good guys) but id like to jump in here and answer before lambert does steal his glory lol. Ok the situation you bring up is a good hand to use as it is very common. You have 9 10 suited otb with 1 limper you don't have to min raise, I kow lambert said bet less pre and post to apply pressure and hes correct but get this guys THERE IS NO STANDARD MOVE IN POKER!!!!! every situation is independent and will require a different approach. So you read your table as passive and assume sb and bb will call along with the limper so ask yourself what will you then do? 1. well you can either fold if you aint comfy going 4 way to a flop. 2. you can judge what the folding point is for 1,2, or all 3 players and bet what is needed. 3. you limp yourself as you will see hand 4 way without risking an extra blind that will make no difference to the outcome I personally would raise 3 - 3.5x to get out 1 or 2 of the blinds and take up position with the limper who will most prob call but be aware they limp called so they are prepared to hit or fold. Go to the flop judge by the board texture if it will hit your opponents range most possibly he has a similar hand as yourself connectors or suited connectors or a random ace. when flop comes if checked to you I would put in a cbet lets assume there is 7.5bb in the pot put in a cbet of around 3bb and you will most likely see a fold as the player will only call if he hits or has a draw so look to see if there is any draws. if you get reraised you should know you are beat and fold. so pre and post flop you are risking 6 bb in a common spot early in a tourney where you will prob be sitting 50bb plus just remember tho no matter outcome of the hand pay attention of how the player played so if the situation comes up again later in the game when blinds are bigger you will know whats coming and adjust to win the hand thanks DrRunGood
Posted by DrRunGood

Yeah,i pretty much agree with that play.

I guess I must have took Lamberts advice on board last night lol

Sneapy	0	79	£14.30 Head Prizes	3
ShaunyT	0	80		0
Lambert180	0	81	£3.75 Head Prizes	1
dingster	0	82	£3.75 Head Prizes	1

last night 3.5k BH. I won the last longer haha.

I guess the reason I asked the question is i'm going through a bit of a lean patch at the minute. I FT'd one of the DTD's last Monday, but other than that I cant remember the last time I had a deep run. (although last nights 3.5k had 405 runners- so top 20%-ish finish).
 I'm still enjoying my poker but sometimes I don't know if its me making horrible plays or its just the run of the cards. I stayed patient last night but got down to about 7bb, an any 2 limper limped UTG and I shoved from the c/o with my AJ suited, villain showed 93suited and rivered a straight (super LOL).
 Thanks for the response DrRunGood.

DrRunGood

In Response to Re: How long do you wait? Or do you wait?:

In Response to Re: How long do you wait? Or do you wait? : Yeah,i pretty much agree with that play. I guess I must have took Lamberts advice on board last night lol Sneapy 0 79 £14.30 Head Prizes 3   ShaunyT 0 80   0   Lambert180 0 81 £3.75 Head Prizes 1   dingster 0 82 £3.75 Head Prizes 1 last night 3.5k BH. I won the last longer haha. I guess the reason I asked the question is i'm going through a bit of a lean patch at the minute. I FT'd one of the DTD's last Monday, but other than that I cant remember the last time I had a deep run. (although last nights 3.5k had 405 runners- so top 20%-ish finish).  I'm still enjoying my poker but sometimes I don't know if its me making horrible plays or its just the run of the cards. I stayed patient last night but got down to about 7bb, an any 2 limper limped UTG and I shoved from the c/o with my AJ suited, villain showed 93suited and rivered a straight (super LOL).  Thanks for the response DrRunGood.
Posted by ShaunyT

Hi again
well done for lasting longer a mistake a lot of players make is they assume the tourney was won and lost on 1 hand. im sure if you go through any tourney hand history you will see a bunch of hand where you have lost 2 or 3 bb by limpin in or raising in bad positions. don't judge your poker on results because you haven't had any deep runs doesn't mean your playing bad and vice versa because you win 2 tournys in a week doesn't mean your playing good. Play every hand as best you can and you may bust 50 tournys but play 5000 tournys and you will be way in the green I promise. situations you are struggling with which from what you say im guessing is mid tourney there has been 10s of thousands of people with the same problems google it go on forums look up what others have brought up and what replies they have had. and that is what you call doing your poker homework when you find a few solutions you then need to test out the theorys by playing a good number of tournys and going with whatever play or solution mid tourney you are happy with

DrRunGood

AMYBR

Go to Youtube, type in grispsed.  Watch all MTT replays and absorb the analysis.  Always then be confident that your decisions are right, if not the result.