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Moral Dilemma...

SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,700
edited March 2015 in Poker Chat

As some of you know, I play 1/2 cash poker at my local casino on Friday/Saturday.

 

As is the case with local games that you attend with any kind of regularity, you get to see the same faces repeatedly and you may even become friendly with some of them.

 

Paul is a nice guy who I get along with well. He plays quite often and through conversation I have discovered he has been out of work for some time… and yes, whether he should or shouldn’t be playing poker is a discussion for another time.

 

Anyway, I picked up AA, raised to about £7 pre. Folds all around until Paul – sitting right next to me – calls. Flop is AJ4. He leads out for £8. I call. Turn is another jack and he again leads for £16. I flat call him again. The river is a 9. He bets £32. Throughout the hand I’ve been indicating to him that I have a monster to try and slow him down, but he maybe thinks I’m blagging it.

 

Here is my dilemma. I like this guy, and I know he’s unemployed. If I flat call with the effective nuts (unless he has quad jacks) to save him money, it almost looks like collusion. I know I’m supposed to shove and put him all in (he has about £50 behind, and I have him covered) but I don’t really want him to call if I do. I want him to know he is behind and save himself some money.

 

What would you do?

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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Moral Dilemma...:
    As some of you know, I play 1/2 cash poker at my local casino on Friday/Saturday.   As is the case with local games that you attend with any kind of regularity, you get to see the same faces repeatedly and you may even become friendly with some of them.   Paul is a nice guy who I get along with well. He plays quite often and through conversation I have discovered he has been out of work for some time… and yes, whether he should or shouldn’t be playing poker is a discussion for another time.   Anyway, I picked up AA, raised to about £7 pre. Folds all around until Paul – sitting right next to me – calls. Flop is AJ4. He leads out for £8. I call. Turn is another jack and he again leads for £16. I flat call him again. The river is a 9. He bets £32. Throughout the hand I’ve been indicating to him that I have a monster to try and slow him down, but he maybe thinks I’m blagging it.   Here is my dilemma. I like this guy, and I know he’s unemployed. If I flat call with the effective nuts (unless he has quad jacks) to save him money, it almost looks like collusion. I know I’m supposed to shove and put him all in (he has about £50 behind, and I have him covered) but I don’t really want him to call if I do. I want him to know he is behind and save himself some money.   What would you do?
    Posted by Slipwater
    If you're not comfortable taking money off of everyone at the table, I think you should stand tbh.

    In game I would play hard and try to win all of the money.  If he's a good mate I might slip him £50 or so back after the game is done but tbh, I would probably just keep the money in most cases.
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  • SolarCarroSolarCarro Member Posts: 2,273
    edited March 2015
    There are no friends in poker, if you are in a hand you play it optimally whoever it is against

    Paul should not be playing if he cannot afford to lose 1 buyin

    You should shove and presuming it is only you and him in the hand perhaps verbally suggest a fold would be a good idea assuming he trusts you.

    I was playing at Caesers Palace in a normal evening tournament, 4 paid 5 were left and I picked up AA in the big blind, my other half raised the button (she had AJ), it was called by SB and I shipped from the BB, she called and I bubbled her, she accepted it was part of the territory.

    I also busted Dave Harvey Hitman in an APAT game in very similar circumstances but it's all part of the game, beer afterwards!!

    Dave
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  • repton3repton3 Member Posts: 185
    edited March 2015
    And what if he actually has pocket jacks and by not shoving him you deny him the opportunity for a complete double through and as a consequence he can't eat next week? (yes OK slightly tongue in cheek)

    Oh and even though it is a tough choice morally I'm sorry to say that where you have said above "it almost looks like collusion", I'd say it IS collusion.  If you purposely try not to win as much off a certain player for whatever reason that is collusion, whether your intentions are good or not.

    FWIW if the person playing is not someone directly in your family or whatever I'd say it's really not your problem if they are playing with money they can't afford, and so you really have to just go for it.
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  • VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,533
    edited March 2015
    Play as you would against anyone, then maybe have a beer and a chat with him afterwards?
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited March 2015
    Shove! He sits there of his own accord, you can't think like that.

    Also, how do you actually know he is unemployed? He could be a very clever guy who puts on a fake story to make people feel sorry for him for these very type of situations. It's unlikely this is the case, but poker attracts all kind of weird and wonderful people.
    You never really know who you are sat with. Reg in seat 3 who is quiet and you haven't spoken to may be employed by HMRC for example which Paul has picked up on and could be the reason he is telling people he is unemployed.

    This next point is kind of irrelevant, but it just backs up my "You never know who you're playing with" point. A few months ago a friend of mine was playing a decent sized tournament. I think it was a GUKPT/UKIPT I don't know, but the person on his table appeared that night on crimewatch. Obviously the guy got wind of this and quickly disappeared during a break, never to be seen again. 

    Anyway. SHOVE! lol
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,700
    edited March 2015

    Yeah, I figured that would be the general consensus…

     

    I did shove, but – as has been suggested – I verbally declared I had him beaten and strongly advised that a fold would be his best option. I said I’d show him if he folded just so he knew I wasn’t lying.

     

    Alas, he called with his bare jack (for trips) and lost his money. I told him he would’ve saved a lot – probably folding on the flop – had he let me take the betting lead!

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2015
    You had no qualms trying to take my money in Nottingham.
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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited March 2015
    If you really wanted to save him the money only way to do it is just muck your hand without showing. 

    But when you're playing cash its dog eat dog you shouldn't play softer vs someone you like, it ruins the integreity of the game.

    What happened in the end surely you shipped it?
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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited March 2015
    If you really wanted to save him the money only way to do it is just muck your hand without showing. 

    But when you're playing cash its dog eat dog you shouldn't play softer vs someone you like, it ruins the integreity of the game.

    What happened in the end surely you shipped it?
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,700
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma...:
    You had no qualms trying to take my money in Nottingham.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    For the purposes of this thread, let’s just imagine we’re not mates, okay? ;)

     

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma...:
    In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma... : For the purposes of this thread, let’s just imagine we’re not mates, okay? ;)  
    Posted by Slipwater
    Imagine?
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,818
    edited March 2015
    As someone who is unemployed i feel i may be able to post and give better reply to the 'morale' dilemma thing. 

    If someone is sat at a poker table, ignore their background. As Dave says above i regularly play with family members, and while we probably don't bust eachother as much as others its just down to solid reads rather than soft play. 

    I sit at a poker table and i want people to play me. I give very little thought for who they are(as a person i mean), whats their background etc etc. And i like to think they do the same. Theres lots of people who i like and i think are top people, but i wouldn't hesitate to stick the nut full house down their throat in a game of cards. And would expect exactly the same from them. 

    If the person can't afford to lose the cash chances are they don't sit at the table. Its one of the great things in poker you can be at a table with billionaires and unemployed guys all sat next to eachother enjoying one game. 
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  • shakinacesshakinaces Member Posts: 1,590
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma...:
    Shove! He sits there of his own accord, you can't think like that. Also, how do you actually know he is unemployed? He could be a very clever guy who puts on a fake story to make people feel sorry for him for these very type of situations. It's unlikely this is the case, but poker attracts all kind of weird and wonderful people. You never really know who you are sat with. Reg in seat 3 who is quiet and you haven't spoken to may be employed by HMRC for example which Paul has picked up on and could be the reason he is telling people he is unemployed. This next point is kind of irrelevant, but it just backs up my "You never know who you're playing with" point. A few months ago a friend of mine was playing a decent sized tournament. I think it was a GUKPT/UKIPT I don't know, but the person on his table appeared that night on crimewatch. Obviously the guy got wind of this and quickly disappeared during a break, never to be seen again.  Anyway. SHOVE! lol
    Posted by FlashFlush
    Even if his story is true, how can you know that he's too skint to be playing cards?  There are plenty of people who are unemployed but have good savings built up and/or received a healthy pay-off upon leaving their job that could easily leave them more able to afford to lose a couple of hundred quid than people in full time employment.

    You could just as soon try and stop winning pots from people in low-paid employment, retirees, blokes with a couple of young kids etc

    The whole concept of poker and taking money from other people is a bit of a moral dilema, but as soon as we decide to play we've made our minds up that it's ok to take their cash (on the main thinking, 'it's their money, they aren't forced to put it down at a poker table')

    Plus if this fella is any cop at poker, he'll cooler you or someone else for stacks at some point and erase the losses from this hand :)
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  • ShaunyTShaunyT Member Posts: 619
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Moral Dilemma...:
    As some of you know, I play 1/2 cash poker at my local casino on Friday/Saturday.   As is the case with local games that you attend with any kind of regularity, you get to see the same faces repeatedly and you may even become friendly with some of them.   Paul is a nice guy who I get along with well. He plays quite often and through conversation I have discovered he has been out of work for some time… and yes, whether he should or shouldn’t be playing poker is a discussion for another time.   Anyway, I picked up AA, raised to about £7 pre. Folds all around until Paul – sitting right next to me – calls. Flop is AJ4. He leads out for £8. I call. Turn is another jack and he again leads for £16. I flat call him again. The river is a 9. He bets £32. Throughout the hand I’ve been indicating to him that I have a monster to try and slow him down, but he maybe thinks I’m blagging it.   Here is my dilemma. I like this guy, and I know he’s unemployed. If I flat call with the effective nuts (unless he has quad jacks) to save him money, it almost looks like collusion. I know I’m supposed to shove and put him all in (he has about £50 behind, and I have him covered) but I don’t really want him to call if I do. I want him to know he is behind and save himself some money.   What would you do?
    Posted by Slipwater

    Obviously, as a human being, I see why this situation weighs on your conscience. But the moral dilemma is his, not yours. The same applies if he had a job. At the end of the day the golden rule is : don't sit down at a poker table with money you can't afford to lose.
     Some people with terrible gambling problems hide them from the world. They can sit down at a table with pockets full of cash and seem happy to lose the money. When the reality is they might be heavily in debt and shouldn't be anywhere near a poker table, or casino, for that matter.
     If a person sits down with money that should be for the mortgage, food, bills, whatever, then it is themselves who should be searching their soul to ask "should I be sat here?"

    I'm a bit of a softie, and I would probably feel the same as you. But I agree with the rest of the replies (and your play) shove and take the money.

    P.s. my brother once bubbled me when I shoved my k high flush into his nut flush, and I thought I was doing him a favour lol

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2015
    So Slippy, not only do you bumhunt the weekend drunks, you also target the unemployed, under the guise of being ''friends''.

    Absolute jerk ;)
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited March 2015
    Hi Slippy.

    If the situation was the other way around - are we saying its ok for him to take our money cause we have a job, but it's not ok to take his cause he doesn't.?

    I'm pretty sure he would take yours m8, so i'm happy to play it as normal. I certainly wouldn't play it soft on him.
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  • VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,533
    edited March 2015
    If the guy was unemployed but was "earning a bit on the side" through some sort of illegal activity to play poker, would you be happy to take it?
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  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,700
    edited March 2015
    Valid points, all*...



    *...except Malcolm.
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  • VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,533
    edited March 2015
    Did he carry on playing or stand?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2015
    Did you pick his pocket before he left?
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