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300NL

Itsover4uItsover4u Member Posts: 1,538
edited March 2015 in Strategy
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceBretticus7Small blind £1.50£1.50£321.50Itsover4uBig blind £3.00£4.50£407.10 Your hole cardsK9   Bretticus7Raise £7.50£12.00£314.00Itsover4uRaise £27.00£39.00£380.10Bretticus7Call £21.00£60.00£293.00Flop  J5K   Itsover4uBet £39.00£99.00£341.10Bretticus7Raise £78.00£177.00£215.00Itsover4uCall £39.00£216.00£302.10Turn  8   Itsover4uCheck    Bretticus7Check    River  Q   Itsover4uCheck    Bretticus7Bet £120.00£336.00£95.00Itsover4uCall £120.00£456.00£182.10Bretticus7ShowKQ   Itsover4uMuckK9   Bretticus7WinTwo Pairs, Kings and Queens£455.00 £550.00
I thought this was pretty marginal vs a super aggro opponent.... raising 95% pretty drawey board made it big 2 pair straight or air.

Thoughts?
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  • Itsover4uItsover4u Member Posts: 1,538
    edited March 2015
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancehttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-color: transparent; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat" class="dealer">Bretticus7Small blind £1.50£1.50£494.60Itsover4uBig blind £3.00£4.50£369.00 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-color: #ffffff; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat" class="diamond">10https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-color: #ffffff; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat" class="spade">J   Bretticus7Raise £7.50£12.00£487.10Itsover4uCall £6.00£18.00£363.00Flop     Itsover4uCheck    Bretticus7Bet £13.50£31.50£473.60Itsover4uCall £13.50£45.00£349.50Turn     Itsover4uCheck    Bretticus7Bet £33.75£78.75£439.85Itsover4uCall £33.75£112.50£315.75River     Itsover4uBet £48.00£160.50£267.75Bretticus7All-in £439.85£600.35£0.00Itsover4uAll-in £267.75£868.10£0.00Bretticus7Unmatched bet £124.10£744.00£124.10Bretticus7Show
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-color: #ffffff; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat" class="diamond">J
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-color: #ffffff; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat" class="diamond">8
       Itsover4uShow   Itsover4uWinStraight to the Jack£743.00 £743.00

    Also is this always a call... i dont think i can ever find the fold here


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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited March 2015
    I dont like it but at least you only lose 1 half sized pot bet after the flop action.

    Dont hate 3bet for post flop leverage.  But flops a bit of a mess.  Not sure if he is inducing or trying to ensure you check fourth street, mayb both.  

    Myeh.  Looks dynamc dependant 
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited March 2015
    Dislike 3-bet - we have a hand that plays well in a SRP against a really wide range and 3-betting will get villain to just fold a lot of the hands we dominate (worse Kx and some worse 9x)

    Post-flop is w/e hard to tell w/o reads. I dislike flop bet I think this hand after 3-betting it is a great candidate to check since we already have a range advantage on this board and if we do want to check with some weak SD stuff plus some air intending to fire a delayed c-bet then we need to be able to have some Kx that can happily c/c 3 streets. Plus, given how aggro villain is it's likely to induce lots of bets from him.

    River is meh - hard to see what villain might be bluffing here since if he had a flush draw on the flop I'd expect this villain to be betting turn again.
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  • mrleemr1mrleemr1 Member Posts: 143
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: 300NL:
    Dislike 3-bet - we have a hand that plays well in a SRP against a really wide range and 3-betting will get villain to just fold a lot of the hands we dominate (worse Kx and some worse 9x) Post-flop is w/e hard to tell w/o reads. I dislike flop bet I think this hand after 3-betting it is a great candidate to check since we already have a range advantage on this board and if we do want to check with some weak SD stuff plus some air intending to fire a delayed c-bet then we need to be able to have some Kx that can happily c/c 3 streets. Plus, given how aggro villain is it's likely to induce lots of bets from him. River is meh - hard to see what villain might be bluffing here since if he had a flush draw on the flop I'd expect this villain to be betting turn again.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic

    Really like this 
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  • Itsover4uItsover4u Member Posts: 1,538
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: 300NL:
    Dislike 3-bet - we have a hand that plays well in a SRP against a really wide range and 3-betting will get villain to just fold a lot of the hands we dominate (worse Kx and some worse 9x) Post-flop is w/e hard to tell w/o reads. I dislike flop bet I think this hand after 3-betting it is a great candidate to check since we already have a range advantage on this board and if we do want to check with some weak SD stuff plus some air intending to fire a delayed c-bet then we need to be able to have some Kx that can happily c/c 3 streets. Plus, given how aggro villain is it's likely to induce lots of bets from him. River is meh - hard to see what villain might be bluffing here since if he had a flush draw on the flop I'd expect this villain to be betting turn again.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic

    my issue is against a villain who's stats are seriously aggresive pre i have little to no choice but to widen my 3 bet range. game dynamic wise he also had a tendancy to 4 bet light and eventually made a few mistakes by 4 betting too wide.

    I never considered checking this board as I feel I gain no information what so ever and he could of quite happily 3 barreled me.... but I am an aggresive player myself so I may try to balance my checking and betting range a little.

    the river is my issue, with all the light calls and aggresive plays it screamed of a bluff... missed flush draws straight draws etc and when i was playing out the hand in my head the fact he min 3 bet my bet screamed of a draw.

    I dunno maybe I could of found the fold but ultimately I did not.

    I have not run the numbers on the hand or anything to see if it was + ev call but I certainly need to as its a fairly common spot.

    Session ended well and i took 4 figures in the end but ultimatley certain hands can chew our brain after a session and this was one of them.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: 300NL:
    In Response to Re: 300NL : my issue is against a villain who's stats are seriously aggresive pre i have little to no choice but to widen my 3 bet range. game dynamic wise he also had a tendancy to 4 bet light and eventually made a few mistakes by 4 betting too wide. I never considered checking this board as I feel I gain no information what so ever and he could of quite happily 3 barreled me.... but I am an aggresive player myself so I may try to balance my checking and betting range a little. the river is my issue, with all the light calls and aggresive plays it screamed of a bluff... missed flush draws straight draws etc and when i was playing out the hand in my head the fact he min 3 bet my bet screamed of a draw. I dunno maybe I could of found the fold but ultimately I did not. I have not run the numbers on the hand or anything to see if it was + ev call but I certainly need to as its a fairly common spot. Session ended well and i took 4 figures in the end but ultimatley certain hands can chew our brain after a session and this was one of them.
    Posted by Itsover4u
    I agree we should be widening our 3-bet range I just think this isn't the hand we should be 3-betting with. It's not quite strong enough to 3-bet for value but too strong to 3-bet bluff. Weakest K I would 3-bet for value would be KTs/KJo... maybe K9s is strong enough too if he's never folding to 3bets.

    What do we do with this hand facing a 4bet? Do we call? 5-bet bluff? When we widen our 3-bet value range, we should also then widen our 5b GII range and so we want to have value hands that are happy to do that... K9o really isn't.

    We don't just play to gain information.... we play to gain maximum value. Information can help achieve that but we shouldn't let it be the basis of our decisions. 

    You say you balance your betting and checking, but if you are betting this hand on this board, then what hands are you checking? Villain can happily 3-barrel us on lots of runouts knowing when we c/c we're capping ourselves at Jx. Plus he can just fire 1 or 2 knowing it will be immediately profitable.

    A min-r is very rarely a draw in my experience unless it's a combo draw that is more than happy to GII on the flop. But even when it is a draw, I would expect an aggro villain to again bet on the turn. Other hands I expect to see from a min-r are medium/strong hands that want to take betting lead and slow down action OTT. Or nutted hands or complete air. Since villain checks turn we can rule out nutted hands and we can rule out lots of draws. He could have air and be giving up or be pot controlling.

    When villain bets river, he could have decided to take another stab with his air. But the board hasn't really ran out in a way that would make an air hand want to take another stab. And an air hand might also be tempted to bet bigger.... his sizing just screams of a hand that wants a call and given we have lots of better hands we can have in our range by now I think we can fold. I don't hate the call tho, it is v close and you prob have more of an idea than I can because you know better how villain was playing.
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  • Itsover4uItsover4u Member Posts: 1,538
    edited March 2015
    Thanks some good points for me to mull over there
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited March 2015

    Good posts from Ivan as usual.

    Pre - You have said villain 4-bets too light so 3-betting a polarised range makes sense. Would choose bluff combos that have a little more equity pre Q9s, J8s etc. Agree that K9o isn't a great candidate.

    Flop - Really clear check imo. Checking some of your weaker Kx here allows you to call 3 barrels on certain run outs and stops you getting run over. You can't get 3 streets of value here so c/c c/c c/decide is the line I'd take. Your blocking a decent portion of villains value range and allow him to spa z with any zero equity hands otf.

    River - Fold and its not even close imo. So many of villains combos hit this river. A10/910 got there and AQ/Q10 are very likely checking back to take showdown. Likely river range for betting is 2pr+ and air which I think you would have folded out the majority of time as you bet flop. Assuming your somewhat balanced on this river your really far down in your range and have much better hands to call here both in terms of absolute and blocker strength.

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  • Itsover4uItsover4u Member Posts: 1,538
    edited March 2015
    I should of mentioned this guy was not adverse to floating although I cant remember if I had figured this by this point as it was fairly early on.

    From what im hearing the main issue was leading the turn. 

    I just cant understand why leading is a bad play, it is surely better and much stronger the check calling 3 streets. I would much rather be putting him to difficult decisions than myself (Although ultimatley I ended up in that position)
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  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited March 2015
    In Response to Re: 300NL:
    I should of mentioned this guy was not adverse to floating although I cant remember if I had figured this by this point as it was fairly early on. From what im hearing the main issue was leading the turn.  I just cant understand why leading is a bad play, it is surely better and much stronger the check calling 3 streets. I would much rather be putting him to difficult decisions than myself (Although ultimatley I ended up in that position)
    Posted by Itsover4u
    I actually think calling river is the biggest mistake in the hand as played.

    By betting the flop you don't avoid difficult decisions in the hand. K9o isn't strong enough to bet 3 streets for value vs the vast majority of players at 300nl. So your going to have to play at least 1 street oop against an aggro opponent having given up the betting lead. If you check the flop you don't really have a difficult decision until the river anyway as c/c flop + turn is going to be pretty standard vs player as described.

    It's not necessarily that leading the flop is bad play, but imo checking has higher ev + protects your range in later hands vs this guy.
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