Chip and a Chair

Lambert180

I got off to a cracking start in tonight's UKOPS Main, I'd got my starting stack from 4k up to about 8k, I'd lost a little, then this hand happened. I was cursing my luck and my own play straight after. At this point I think there must have been at least 150+ people left and I had 0 heads...

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SIONIDE	Small blind		100.00	100.00	9783.00
Lambert180	Big blind		200.00	300.00	6278.00
	Your hole cards	A A
rivermunky	Call		200.00	500.00	5869.00
omm	Fold
lundie	Fold
xxxxxxc	Fold
SIONIDE	Fold
Lambert180	Raise		440.00	940.00	5838.00
rivermunky	Call		440.00	1380.00	5429.00
Flop
		2 K 8
Lambert180	Bet		710.00	2090.00	5128.00
rivermunky	Raise		1420.00	3510.00	4009.00
Lambert180	All-in		5128.00	8638.00	0.00
rivermunky	All-in		4009.00	12647.00	0.00
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		409.00	12238.00	409.00
Lambert180	Show	A A
rivermunky	Show	2 2
Turn
		Q
River
		6
rivermunky	Win	Three 2s	12238.00		12238.00

Then....

2Posh2Push13560001£2203.50 + £707.47 Head Prizes10£195.59Lambert18002£1271.25 + £205.99 Head Prizes5 

hhyftrftdr

BBV?

hhyftrftdr

I think we all have notes on Rivermunky, and if limping 22 UTG from less than 30bb is owning someone, then I give up.

stuarty117

I see Rivermunky didnt put that hand in BBV

Lambert180

Your needle might have worked donk if I hadn't ended up coming 2nd lol

Yes I've got a few notes on RiverMunky, tbf I think he's played it pretty badly at every stage other than the bit where he called all-in, but that wasn't the point of this post.

Lambert180

My all-in is bad, cos I think I should fold flop. Don't wanna go into my notes too much etc, but l/c UTG off <20xBB then click it back on flop lol... I'm just always beat here imo.

If I aint gonna fold though, I'd rather jam than call. Never in a million years is he limp/calling UTG and then clicking it back here as a bluff, just never, which means he has no bluffs to try and keep in, so if he has got a FD or some kinda TP that he just wants to go with then better to get it in now.

Against munky tho, think flop is a fold, even more so when I have Ah so he can't even have the NFD. He caught me at a bad moment while I had about 12tables going and I paid him off like a fish (that's why I said in OP, i cursed my luck and my play cos think I made a mistake not folding flop)

Matt237

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

i said to him after the hand just call u down as u bet on every street for value still gets ya chips i think munkys raise on the flip is bad tbh as u want to keep bluffs in saying that i think your all in is bad on the flop why not just call then check call his turn bet
Posted by IDONKCALLU

What bluffs does he have after min raising the flop?

MattBates

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

tbh i couldnt fold aa here would be a pretty impressive fold to fold aa altho munkys clickback is superstrong he woulda been better of just shoving then click backing as a all in looks weaker but i would of just called ya c bet and called u down answer matts question munky could easily do this with flush draws instead of calling lamberts bet semi bluff with equity and take initative in the hand by clicking back here cant see many fold aa here u hate life coz u got beat hindsight n all that would of been a gd fold if u found it tho
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Would he jam or click though? Plus would he click with a non NFD?

MAXALLY

Not sure if this thread should be in BBV....Poker Clinic...or diaries!

Wherever it should be.....congrats to Paul. A great % ROI for his stakers.

(next time, just take the opponent's alias out of the post)

stuarty117

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

Not sure if this thread should be in BBV....Poker Clinic...or diaries! Wherever it should be.....congrats to Paul. A great % ROI for his stakers. (next time, just take the opponent's alias out of the post)
Posted by MAXALLY

100% his doesnt get staked on sky

Well played Paul

Sorry for annoying u last nite just fancied watching instead of playing for a bit. Whens ur next twitch

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair : 100% his doesnt get staked on sky Well played Paul Sorry for annoying u last nite just fancied watching instead of playing for a bit. Whens ur next twitch
Posted by stuarty117

Paul kindly sold some of his UKOPS action to a few Sky regs. He obv didnt need to do this, but did it anyway. Only a small %, but he did well and all got a nice return.

cardu

seems a standard hand.......munky limps with small pp....lambert mins it with the nuts to get the customer..allowing munky to outdraw him cheap..

22 utg limp or fold,no need to marry the hand with 5.8k behind on 200 blind level...

lam could of made it 700 or so and 22 folds.....we all know aa win small and lose big......im never folding to munkys min raise on flop but im not shoving either but if lambert thinks munky has top pair on flop maybe its a good move........any way for anyone to come back from 400 chips is well played....AA v 22....its a flip that went to 22 that time    well played to everyone

stuarty117

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair : Paul kindly sold some of his UKOPS action to a few Sky regs. He obv didnt need to do this, but did it anyway. Only a small %, but he did well and all got a nice return.
Posted by MAXALLY

sorry max thought u meant the other stake. 

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

seems a standard hand.......munky limps with small pp....lambert mins it with the nuts to get the customer..allowing munky to outdraw him cheap.. 22 utg limp or fold,no need to marry the hand with 5.8k behind on 200 blind level... lam could of made it 700 or so and 22 folds.....we all know aa win small and lose big......im never folding to munkys min raise on flop but im not shoving either but if lambert thinks munky has top pair on flop maybe its a good move........any way for anyone to come back from 400 chips is well played....AA v 22....its a flip that went to 22 that time    well played to everyone
Posted by cardu

Definitely wouldn't describe the hand as 'standard'. Fwiw, I'm in the BB, the raise in the HH doesn't include that so I actually made it 640 pre. If he calls for 640 then he aint folding for 700 either although tbf, that's a good thing for me, but I'm gonna be iso'ing a lot wider than AA so I don't wanna bloat the pot too much and reduce postflop wiggle room. Limp/calling 3x raises w/ 22 UTG from <20xBB isn't going to be a great strat long term.

As for whether we call/raise flop, I stand by the fact folding is best against this person in this exact spot, if I'm playing my A game, I fold here fairly happily. But assuming folding isn't an option, as I say above, munky has 0 bluffs in his range and he's not raising a value hand/draw that he's gonna fold so GII would be the better option so as to get the max value from draws that might miss and also to get max value from TP hands which I might end up not stacking if the turn/river are scary cards for him and he slows down. Either way this is kinda irrelevant cos I don't think he has any TP hands or draws, so it's just a fold on the flop.

cardu

cos I don't think he has any TP hands or draws, so it's just a fold on the flop..

so instead you go all in oops .........do as i say not as i do springs to mind ......still worked out ok in the end..

do you think losing that hand and going down to 400 chips changed your shove range and helped you recoup and finish 2nd......every cloud

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

cos I don't think he has any TP hands or draws, so it's just a fold on the flop.. so instead you go all in oops .........do as i say not as i do springs to mind ......still worked out ok in the end.. do you think losing that hand and going down to 400 chips changed your shove range and helped you recoup and finish 2nd......every cloud
Posted by cardu

I've said multiple times that not folding the flop was a mistake by me, I make lots of them every session. If I was playing my A game, I fold.

Well initially I had 2bb so my criteria for shoving st first was 'have I been dealt two cards'. First jam was A5dd, called in 3 spots and won so had nearly 10bb,can't remember the next hand but jammed again shortly after, one call, won, had 20bb then it was just business as usual. But no having 400 chips didn't increase my chances of going deep compared to having 7k lol

DazW0lf

Lambert, you say munky played it badly but I see he got maximun amount of chips that he could. Could you explain your definition of playing it well and getting more chips from you please as I'm a little confused. I'm not saying it's a flip, you've just to treat it as one I suppose.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

Lambert, you say munky played it badly but I see he got maximun amount of chips that he could. Could you explain your definition of playing it well and getting more chips from you please as I'm a little confused. I'm not saying it's a flip, you've just to treat it as one I suppose.
Posted by DazW0lf

You're looking at the outcome rather than the method, it's a weird concept to get your head around.

If a friend of yours was down the pub drinking vodka shots on top of 10 pints then decided to drive the 10 mile journey home and arrived safely without any problems on the way, would you agree with his behaviour that day because it worked out well in the end?

Or would you look at it and conclude that he was wrong, and should behave better next time regardless of the outcome on the first trial?

------

If you're always focussed on the outcome in poker then you'll overlook the method which is much more important as that determines the outcome long term.

fwiw this is a ridiculously easy fold, as the Lambster has acknowledged many times.

Even I could fold it

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair : You're looking at the outcome rather than the method, it's a weird concept to get your head around. If a friend of yours was down the pub drinking vodka shots on top of 10 pints then decided to drive the 10 mile journey home and arrived safely without any problems on the way, would you agree with his behaviour that day because it worked out well in the end? Or would you look at it and conclude that he was wrong, and should behave better next time regardless of the outcome on the first trial? ------ If you're always focussed on the outcome in poker then you'll overlook the method which is much more important as that determines the outcome long term. fwiw this is a ridiculously easy fold, as the Lambster has acknowledged many times. Even I could fold it
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I raise.

Lambert180

+1 to JJ. It's about the longterm outcome.

The initial major mistake is limp/calling 10% of his stack with 22 UTG from 20xBB, this is just gonna set fire to money. He's rarely gonna flop his 2, sometimes when he does he won't have the best hand (set over set is rare tbf), and more often than not even when he does hit, I won't have anything to pay him off with. So the preflop play is very much -ev

Then on the flop, I cbet, but I'm gonna have TONS of hands here that I have raised preflop and cbet and his line gets value from almost 0 of them. On this occasion I was 'off my game' and paid him off with AA but even then that's about as weak as it gets for hands I'd pay off with. I'd deffo fold KQ unless I'm realllly off my game lol. I guess I have to pay him off when I have K9, and even then it's questionable lol, obviously I can still have him beat with 99/KK but everything else folds. 

So the times he hits his miracle 2 which was already -ev to draw to as per first paragraph, most of the time his action on the flop forces me to fold AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QQ, JJ, TT, 88, AT, A9 and lots lots more hands, hands which I may have continued to bluff with or improved with on the turn and paid him off etc.

Benchmark

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair:

In Response to Re: Chip and a Chair : You're looking at the outcome rather than the method, it's a weird concept to get your head around. If a friend of yours was down the pub drinking vodka shots on top of 10 pints then decided to drive the 10 mile journey home and arrived safely without any problems on the way, would you agree with his behaviour that day because it worked out well in the end? Or would you look at it and conclude that he was wrong, and should behave better next time regardless of the outcome on the first trial? ------ If you're always focussed on the outcome in poker then you'll overlook the method which is much more important as that determines the outcome long term.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

This is a great analogy. I guess the trick is knowing when you played rubbish and won or played great and lost.