Was this right move

Dollie

Late stages of a £1k bounty hunter. Already in the cash, 8 players remain, blinds 500/1000. I am in 2nd place with c40k chips. I am UTG with JJ, SB is short stack (c8k chips), chip leader is on button with 60k+ chips. I bet 4000, trying to entice SB with any 2. SB goes all in, BB folds and chip leader raised to 15k. My thinking focused on chip leader, he could have over pair or over cards, but could have been trying to steal with under pair or other marginal hand, which was my conclusion. I bet all in hoping he would fold realising that if he didn't I could be up against as many as 3 over cards, meaning I would be a 2 to 1 dog. SB showed AQ and chip leader showed AK. There was an ace on flop and I went out in 7th with a profit of almost £40. BUT DID I MAKE THE RIIGHT MOVE?

GELDY

i would never raise 4x in that situation

i know peeps that do and it's often JJ or AQ, AK!

even if your sizing doesn't change based on your hand be aware others might read it.

given that the cl is saying he is happy to put you to the test even though you've raised big utg. i don't think he is playing light in that situation.

So i don't think he'll be raising to isolate with you in the hand unless he is very strong. hence shoving is wrong. 

ps best to remove the actual hands held so you get unbiased responses. 

hhyftrftdr

I think the problem is that you've inflated the pot from the off by making it 4,000. The CL can now make their 3bet much bigger, and essentially put you in an all or nothing situation pre flop.

JJ vs AK is pretty standard stuff in the later stages of a tournament, however there are wider implications to consider. If you were shorter stacked I think the hand plays itself, but being 2nd, and with a potential immediate ladder, plus being so close to the FT, makes me lean towards not being super gung ho pre. 40bb is chunks to play with at this late stage.

Dollie, have you got the HH available? Be nice to see how it panned out exactly. Any reads on the chip leader? If you think he's never folding a pair pre flop with 2 potential bounties up for grabs then pile the chips in with JJ, or have they been playing a big stack pretty well? Even a big chip leader might not want to dance with the guy in 2nd with anything less than JJ....

Essexphil

Lots of advice here, but we all play hands differently.

My approach is simpler:-you made the right move, full stop.

Lambert180

I think it's kind of a mandatory get it in now but as Harry said, that's due to the fact you've inflated the pot so much with the open. As Geldy said I wouldn't 4x any hand.

Another factor is that there's a bounty involved and while I don't generally go nuts for bounties, other people do, so he could very easily just be 4betting to 15k to get you out the hand and have a punt for the bounty so his range is super wide, I've seen people iso for huge amounts of BBs with everything from A2o to K5o, to 96o, so I'm deffo never folding. I wouldn't normally recommend getting in 40bb pre w/ JJ against most people oon Sky but the 4x open has meant we have to now.

Fwiw, if you want to entice the shorty then minraising is better, at least it gives him the illusion there is some small chance you can fold if he jams (therefore he jams wider), when you put 50% of his stack in pre u aint folding ever, so he should get it in with a tighter range which is bad for us.

Dollie

Thanks for comments guys. Confirms that I could've (should've) played the hand differently and retained perhaps 70% of my stack.

F_Ivanovic

Lambert, whilst I would agree about the bounty factor at the start of a tournament, people usually go a little less nuts by the time we're ITM (for obvious reasons - prize jumps bigger than the bounty worth) 

Giving villain a range of AQ+ and 99+ we're flipping... I think that's a pretty reasonable range and if we win this hand, we have a good chance of going on to win it - so I'm happy to take the gamble I think. If we'd only min-r though then I think we could potentially get away.

btw: Action is confusing, BTN with big stack should act first but you say you raise, SB shoves and then BTN makes it 16k? Did he not flat your initial raise first?

BigBluster

Just wrote a long and windy argument for calling the 11k then moving in on any flop without an ace. But my login timed out before I could post it and I can't be bothered typing it again.

shakinaces

Does this also depend on exactly what bounty is on short stacks head?

I know it's extreme, but if they've picked up say half the bounties in the tournament (before hitting a car crash and ending up short stacked) then it could potentially be worth more to KO them than it is to ladder several places, maybe even more than you'd get FTW?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this right move:

Just wrote a long and windy argument for calling the 11k then moving in on any flop without an ace. But my login timed out before I could post it and I can't be bothered typing it again.
Posted by BigBluster

K Q 5 flop?

Could understand on a low raggy 2 4 6 board or w/e, cos you don't give him the chance to realise his equity if he has 2 overs to JJ (and the pot is already pretty sizeable to scoop, plus the head prize), and you also might get called by 88-10s sometimes.

You also get snapped by anything that beats you as well though!

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Was this right move:

Does this also depend on exactly what bounty is on short stacks head? I know it's extreme, but if they've picked up say half the bounties in the tournament (before hitting a car crash and ending up short stacked) then it could potentially be worth more to KO them than it is to ladder several places, maybe even more than you'd get FTW?
Posted by shakinaces

That's quite often the case in the £33 mains (though not that extreme!)

ITM starts at something like £32, and the jumps for the first 15 places, give or take, can be a matter of a couple of quid. Yet people's bounties by that time can be quite chunky.

It does amuse me when people just ruin their tournament by chasing head prizes, but there is a need for some calculated gambling in certain spots.

rancid

Fold

mcglynn07

In Response to Was this right move:

Late stages of a £1k bounty hunter. Already in the cash, 8 players remain, blinds 500/1000. I am in 2nd place with c40k chips. I am UG with JJ, SB is short stack (c8k chips), chip leader is on button with 60k+ chips. I bet 4000, trying to entice SB with any 2. SB goes all in, BB folds and chip leader raised to 15k. My thinking focused on chip leader, he could have over pair or over cards, but could have been trying to steal with under pair or other marginal hand, which was my conclusion. I bet all in hoping he would fold realising that if he didn't I could be up against as many as 3 over cards, meaning I would be a 2 to 1 dog. SB showed AQ and chip leader showed AK. There was an ace on flop and I went out in 7th with a profit of almost £40. BUT DID I MAKE THE RIIGHT MOVE?
Posted by Dollie

So many variables here. Hard one to call. You have cashed and final tabled so some success for your bankroll.
For me the situation you describe is while you're hand is premium you are not nutted. Your actions were based on the fact you wanted to get SB to do what he did. You did what you thought was right thing but then interpret Real Strength of Raise a shove from SB and re-raise from CL. Are jacks good here can you fold? These are unknowns that are hard to quantify in real time and now today. Reads are all well and good but if you have come this far can you really raise and fold jacks on a final table with a short stack involved. One way to look at it is you are now the meat in the in CL and short stack sandwich but only because you know the hands. I don't think you did much wrong apart from anticipate the possibility of CL's move. Once you saw this you know think were my motives right or wrong and know there is doubt. If you thought I am going with this regardless of sb shove and CL involvement steal or strength then you played the hand the right way end of.
Going with a good hand and going out and questioning it can be interpreted as results orientated and that is not you're aim here. You had a good hand good enough to take the SB and also the CL. 1) you were the favourite 2) you had the best hand and 3) you get the money all in. 4) You didn't win. But 3 out of 4 aint bad If you look at it that way you cannot complain you did everything you were supposed to. Result is immaterial. Looking at it that way may help you.
Cheers
Danny

LARSON7

Should be a fold.

And we've lost 4k, but hey ho

GSmith13

As many people have already stated. the big initial mistake was to 4x utg. You state it is to induce the shortstack with 8bbs to shove, but you may actually discourage him. If he has for example A9, A10 or AJ, he might have happily shipped over your min open, but your perceived range is so strong by opening big UTG, that if I was in his spot id fold a hand as strong as AJ. 

I also agree with others on here that in bounties people to tend to try and isolate bounties relatively lightely in spots, although there are huge ICM considerations here when the Big stack makes a very big raises vs your 4x open, when you are in 2nd. 40bbs is pretty deep at this stage with 8 left, so im guessing that at least half the field left had less than 20bbs. 

The spot becomes more difficult if youve raised normally, as he can easily be isolated much lighter, although as played youve basically told your opponent that you have a strong hand, and if he has taken that information and is still happy to pot commit himself then I would have folded the JJ. Also the value of the shortstacks bounty was probably relatively low, as if he is short at this point, he probably has 2-3 bounties max, so it really isnt worth the risk, and I think long term, you have a much greater chance to come 1st in the tournament if you fold in this spot.

DOHHHHHHH

You state in your opening post that you are giving the big blind a range of overpairs, QQ/KK/AA, overcards, AK/AQ/KQ, underpairs, TT/99/88/77/66/55 and 'other marginal hands', presumably stuff like TJs/TQs/AT/AJ.

Against this range it's not even close, get your money in and be very happy about it. 

However I think your range construction is optimistic.

Readless (and you haven't given any reads so I assume we are) I would expect the 15k raise to mean a much stronger hand range, of AA/KK/QQ/JJ and AK.

Against this range, we can fold.

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As others have said, a larger opening raise usually tightens players continuing ranges. It might be something to play around and experiment with as the same normally applies to bet sizing post flop too.