Line check.

CraigSG1

This hand caused a debate between me and the guy I eventually won the hand against. The main talking point is calling the flop. From there its standard but he said I should have folded but I dissagreed. Anyway, the hand and history:

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
bobbin638	Sit out
S	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.95
CraigSG1	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£19.69
	Your hole cards	K K
TheFall1	Fold
erchin	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£9.31
mrjacobs	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£17.01
S	Call		£0.05	£0.40	£9.90
CraigSG1	Raise		£0.60	£1.00	£19.09
erchin	Call		£0.60	£1.60	£8.71
mrjacobs	Call		£0.60	£2.20	£16.41
S	Call		£0.60	£2.80	£9.30
Flop
		A 3 7
S	Check
CraigSG1	Check
erchin	Check
mrjacobs	Bet		£1.00	£3.80	£15.41
S	Call		£1.00	£4.80	£8.30
CraigSG1	Call		£1.00	£5.80	£18.09
erchin	Fold
Turn
		K
S	Check
CraigSG1	Check
mrjacobs	Bet		£2.00	£7.80	£13.41
S	Raise		£4.00	£11.80	£4.30
CraigSG1	All-in		£18.09	£29.89	£0.00
mrjacobs	Fold
S	All-in		£4.30	£34.19	£0.00
CraigSG1	Unmatched bet		£9.79	£24.40	£9.79
S	Show	3 3
CraigSG1	Show	K K
River
		2
CraigSG1	Win	Three Kings	£23.00		£32.79

Mrjacobs had been involved in EVERY hand and doesnt like to fold. He had been making wierd bets from 4x pot to min bets etc. and last two hands I had caught him betting light.

So I dont like the A obviously so I feel like I want to control the pot and not get into a tricky situation of getting bluff raised off by a FD or 2nd pr or plain bluff etc. I check to see what happens as its four way and i've only invested 6BB so far. If there is a bet and raise or a big bet I will probably just fold being OOP.

There is a small bet by the always involved fella and then a just call and having the NFD as back up and some good turn cards I call as you cant always fold just because there is an Ace. Obviously its a gin turn and things go well from there but my question; is calling flop fine? I said to S that had he raised (like I think he should) I would have folded.

Thoughts?

BorinLoner

Pre-flop is fine.

The flop should probably be a fold. It's not just that an Ace has hit, it's that an Ace has hit, a pre-flop limp-caller has bet into a multi-way pot and there's been a call from another pre-flop limp-caller. It's very unlikely we're ahead. Even though we're being given nearly 5:1, we're mostly just putting more money in to fold on a later street. Even on the occasions that we see showdown for this price, it's likely to be because someone is looking to see showdown with a marginal Ace, rather than nobody having one.

Our flush draw isn't much of a reason to call since, even though it's the nfd, we need to see a four-flushing board in order to hit it and that kills our implied odds. Quite often we put more money in on a club turn getting the wrong price, then either fold the river or don't get paid enough if we get there. We're not that deep in SPR terms anyway.

I don't think the villain should be check-raising the flop. It's quite dry and a check-raise just gives people the chance to fold their raggy aces, which are a big part of the flop-bettor's range. Your check after the pfr makes it very unlikely that you have a strong Ace too, so a check-raise just kills his value. There's definitely good reason for the villain to lead the flop, since you're unlikely to give up holding AJ+ and if the other limp/callers don't have an Ace, they're unliikely to bluff multi-way. They may even just check-back their marginal Aces.

Both you and the villain should lead the turn. After the flop action you should both think there's an Ace out there and you should both be looking for value from that, again fearing the check-through from marginal Aces spooked by the flop action. You both play your hand way too strong on the turn, essentially inviting your opponents to find the fold with one-pair hands.

I don't know who the villain is, maybe you thought he'd never fold after clicking-back the turn. You did give both him and the third villain a great chance to do so by 3-betting though. Who knows what the third villain folded? Maybe you didn't lose value, maybe you did...

CraigSG1

Thanks, thats excellent reasoning.

I have just been in the situation a lot where a small bet and call on flop are hands worse than mine and then it just gets checked down. Maybe its selective memory but I will reread that again and take it in. Thanks.

FWIW, I checked turn as I was 99% sure I would get another bet and I thought the 2nd guy was never folding. He doesnt usually. As for S, I saw him as pot committed and wanted to get it in there before a scare card comes on the river (for him, not me). 

GELDY

i don't mind the call on the flop

sure it's prob -ev but you're playing fairly deep and it's always good to mix it up a bit. and although the backdoor isn't worth much in ev terms it's always better to have some additional equity. 

CraigSG1

My flop call was based on mrJ can literally have anything and it was a weak bet and the other guys call could easily have been a FD or 2nd pr type hand and as I said we can't always fold Kings on A high boards. 

F_Ivanovic

People don't usually call with 2nd pair on an A high flop 4 way. Sure, 2nd villain could have a FD but then what does mrjacobs have? It's pretty likely that at least one person that saw the flop has an A.  Overall I'd say the call on the flop was marginally bad, but not too terrible. I think with position the flop call could be fine but OOP it's just too hard to continue profitably.

rancid

We have Kk folding is for wimps

Calling is ok

grantorino

C/f flop imo, unless you expect action to dry up on turn

Flat turn if original bettor is a likely to spew