FeelGroggy's rise and Poker question.

StayOrGo

Hi all.

Firstly I want to congratulate Danny (FeelGroggy) on some great results recently.

I've been helping him out with his game for a little while, and I am pleased to say that "my student" is doing very well. However, he deserves the credit not me, as my input has been minimal.

Over the last week he has won a main, been 2nd in a mini, and cashed in the Sunday Roller at his first time of playing it.
 
He has generally been playing lower stakes, but now feels ready to take the next step up.

I don't provide coaching while he is playing as I don't think that's right, and I'm too focused on my games anyway. However we often discuss hands at the end of the night.

Here's a question Danny had from the "Roller". I have my views, but I think this is a straight forward question to throw out to a wider audience.

Danny was in the money on last Sunday's Roller. There were 12 players left, but he was short=stacked with 9 or 10BB.

He has JQo under the gun. Should he shove?

Following this, he has 8 BB's with A3o in the Cut Off. Should he shove?

Danny and I would be interested to hear the views of other players.

Are both a shove? One a shove? Or neither?

I have my opinion and Danny has a differing view. Would be interested in other players thoughts.

Cheers,

Graham

RLT16

Id shove both personally, but im not a great mtt player

mumsie

I think A3o is a shove , QJo ...hmm, I like it less, but I dont know why....sooo. Shove

jordz16

I think it all depends on the dynamics and the stacks of other players.

i dont think either is a clear cut yes or no, but if i was readless and without information i would be folding jq utg but id be shoving any ace from the cut off with 8 bbs

GSmith13

Probably fold the QJo UTG, and would rather lose the 1 or 1.5BBs from the blinds, and shove any 2 in the SB or Button in an unraised pot, as I think this will be long term more profitable, plus if that doesnt go to plan you can shove light in the next orbit. A3o in the cutoff, assuming it hasnt been opened then I would definately be shoving this, as with only 3 hands behind A high is likely to be the best hand, plus you want to give yourself the best chance to come 1st.

Well done Danny on your recent success.

rspca12

wp danny one of the gd guys we always have a gd chat at tables he his a very gd player.  the a3 off standard ship imo. the qj off is close because of the six max dynamic and without antes  on a tight table don't mind shoving  but think fold is fine on 80% of tables. Also gl in u partnership guys am sure it will beneficially for both of u.

StayOrGo

Interesting feedback, FYI, Danny was a considerable short stack on the table. I don't know what the average stack was, but lets say 35BB's.

Thanks for the responses

GaryQQQ

The A3 is an easier shove imo because there are fewer players to act and you have the ace-blocker. You've got reasonable equity against all calling hands except the unlikely pocket AA.

QJ, you've got a bit more to think about. To open-shove it I'd prefer a table of fairly shallow stacks that that are calling a bit too tight and for my own image to be good. If there are deep stacks calling correctly it might be preferable to wait another orbit or two and hope for a better spot.

If very close to the bubble, or in the money, then pay jumps and the sizes of other short stacks come into the equation too, in both cases.

StayOrGo

Interesting comments, my thoughts are as follows:

For the reasons you guys mentioned above, A3o in the Cut Off with 8 BB's is a standard shove imo. (The bubble had burst, money up top, likely to be ahead, etc.)

JQo with 9 or 10 BB is more questionable, however, I think the pay jumps make it worth shoving.

True, you are only getting called by better, but could well have two live cards and not be that much of an underdog if you get called (I'd say close to 40% equity against ranges that call you, (I think, KJ and KQ probably fold to an UTG shove, which is a key factor imo)).

The prize money increases gradually, until the top three places so, I think ICM may make JQ a shove.

I think both are a fold on the bubble, unless you are of the mind set that you're not interested in a min cash, and just want to try and win the tournament.

So that's my view, however, I am happy to receive constructive criticism.

Cheers,

Graham

lovejunky

NO,and then,yes

lovejunky

NO,and then,yes

StayOrGo

I think in some ways, 6 handed, it's better to shove 10BB with JQ UTG than from Cut Off, Button or Small Blind, because I think most, KQ, KJ, hands call a shove from these positions but fold if the shove was UTG, as it is given much more respect.
 
Which I think, is an interesting thought.

Cheers,

Graham

jordz16

yeah thats true, but the fact you have to get it through 5 people as opposed to 3 makes a bigger difference imo but obviously it all comes down to opinions and who the players are.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: FeelGroggy's rise and Poker question.:

I think in some ways, 6 handed, it's better to shove 10BB with JQ UTG than from Cut Off, Button or Small Blind, because I think most, KQ, KJ, hands call a shove from these positions but fold if the shove was UTG, as it is given much more respect.   Which I think, is an interesting thought. Cheers, Graham
Posted by StayOrGo

Agreed. I think the QJ has more fold equity and the A3o is often dominated when called since people prefer calling shoves with Ax hands over KQ and KJ. 

I think the A3 one is really close with 8BB's.... if it was the lower end of 8BB's and blinds were going up soon then it's a clear shove but if blinds aren't going up soon and we have the higher end of 8BB's then I think we can  potentially fold.

We've only talked about shove or fold here but with ten BB's I'm tempted to m-r QJ from UTG. Think this allows us to get away if a really tight player shoves, 2 players GII or next to act (and possiblky one after) shoves due to their tight ranges from that position. Also think it gets almost the same amount of fold equity on most tables. Raising QJo also allows us to induce with QQ-AA (and AKs too) - if we're not m-r anything then it becomes super obvious that we have AA when we m-r UTG.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: FeelGroggy's rise and Poker question.:

In Response to Re: FeelGroggy's rise and Poker question. : Agreed. I think the QJ has more fold equity and the A3o is often dominated when called since people prefer calling shoves with Ax hands over KQ and KJ.  I think the A3 one is really close with 8BB's.... if it was the lower end of 8BB's and blinds were going up soon then it's a clear shove but if blinds aren't going up soon and we have the higher end of 8BB's then I think we can  potentially fold. We've only talked about shove or fold here but with ten BB's I'm tempted to m-r QJ from UTG. Think this allows us to get away if a really tight player shoves, 2 players GII or next to act (and possiblky one after) shoves due to their tight ranges from that position. Also think it gets almost the same amount of fold equity on most tables. Raising QJo also allows us to induce with QQ-AA (and AKs too) - if we're not m-r anything then it becomes super obvious that we have AA when we m-r UTG.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Good point, there is argument for the min R with JQ, which is how I would play it on the bubble, although once in the money, I think I shove because of the 40% probable equity if we're called.

hhyftrftdr

Just did a long post but I'd timed out, forum tilt!

Cliffs....

-shoving QJ with 10bb utg can't be too bad a play IMO
-looks strong, will often be live if looked up
-can fold out flips and 60/40s if utg+1/cutoff has a reasonable hand but cant just call and doesn't wanna commit with something like 66 and 3/4 people to act behind.

-A3 and 8bb, yeah probs a shove but its one of those spots that you always hate.
-wouldn't begrudge someone folding A3 just cos that feeling is terrible when you do get called!

Think in game stuff will dictate here. If the table is active, then QJ feels like more of a goer and just trying to get it through. You're probs gonna have your blinds nicked, and then you might struggle to find a decent spot with ever decreasing FE. If the table is passive, then you can maybe let the blinds go through you again before going for it. If there is a chance you'll get a walk then this helps!

Epoker

http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/6max/

this is a great little site I use for this type of thing

FeelGroggy

Thank you Graham and others for the kind comments and feedback. My push or fold game definitely needs some brushing up on. It's interesting to see the mixed feedback with some of you thinking the qj is more of a shove and others thinking the opposite.  I do agree jamming qjo utg likely folds out some hands that dominate  us like kj and sometimes kq but I still think that it's a fold although it is interesting. Could we use the same logic to justify jamming hands like 45s which has 40 percent equity vs high cards?                                                                        With the A3o hand I think I had a 25k stack with 1500/3000 blinds but am unsure if I was in the cut off or hijack. If I was in the cut off I think i should be a jamming but in the hijack I think i lean to a fold. The table was relatively tight however the sb was fairly loose and the BB an unknown. 

FeelGroggy

Thank you Graham and others for the kind comments and feedback. My push or fold game definitely needs some brushing up on. It's interesting to see the mixed feedback with some of you thinking the qj is more of a shove and others thinking the opposite.  I do agree jamming qjo utg likely folds out some hands that dominate  us like kj and sometimes kq but I still think that it's a fold although it is interesting. Could we use the same logic to justify jamming hands like 45s which has 40 percent equity vs high cards?                                                                        With the A3o hand I think I had a 25k stack with 1500/3000 blinds but am unsure if I was in the cut off or hijack. If I was in the cut off I think i should be a jamming but in the hijack I think i lean to a fold. The table was relatively tight however the sb was fairly loose and the BB an unknown. 

LmfaoAllin

Firstly just wanted to say a big well done to Danny, i noticed the results and have been waiting to congratulate  but haven't bumped into you on tables.

Great going, really pleased for you, and so soon after previous post re results.

Regarding your questions Graham i think they have been answered pretty much at most angles and by better players than i, but here's my tuppence worth anyway : )

The qj utg is a fold for me, even tho we are so short with no antes im waiting for a better spot. I dont mind the shove or mr, both valid plays, the shove getting looked up by big stacks light with small - mid pp and ax hands where we are live but still essentially flipping at best but often crushed, obv these situation's are enevitable when this short and were ITM so not the worst spot to try and double/take blinds.

The a3 in the cut off is def a better spot imo assuming pot un opened any a v 3 random got to take the chance to du this short, although not loving any call we have the a.

Ps noticed your bink in main and 2nd in mini were in consecutive days......noice, keep it up mate vwp.

And Graham keep your eyes peeled on your inbox as may have to start pestering you for advice : )

F_Ivanovic

The problem with 45s is it's in horrible shape against plenty of pairs that QJ is flipping against (44-TT) - overall it has less equity against a calling range then QJo does. We can only have so many hands in our "bluff shoving range" too otherwise we start getting less respect from our shoves and get called too wide.