I do know what you mean charly but it also depends what game you regularly play.Any fast structured tourny and this always happens.Have you tried the deepys? or the omaha tournys? There is far more skill needed to win these.I have just won the 10.15 £50 gtd omaha tourny with 17 runners at £5.50 buy in and there was not a chancer in sight.gl mate.dav Posted by dav1964
Dave.Thats all i play are DS,M8,i've said im not complaining or moaning about what i said,i know this happens and have been there,every one has,all ive said is that its getting worse and becomming more than a joke now.To be quite honest,i try not to get involved with these players,if u try to outthink them you come out loosing.I normally sit back and let them knock themselfs out,then have a good laugh.Its easier playing against 1 on the table than 3.Have seen many a time on first flop,2 or 3 go all in.To me this is kamikazi play,but as said this is up to them.No prob on my part.There just trying to be clever.
Charly I can understand where your coming from, just the other week I could not get players off hands and they always seem to hit me on the river. Whatever I got they got better, but like everyone has said thats not the game changing, thats just poker.
Irishrover and Dohh are absolutely right in what they are saying what you have called all these people who you say have no skill, well frankly at some point or another you are just them, you can't say you have never called something found yourself in a tight spot and then hit the river and then ran in shame, or you were big stacked in any tournament and decided to lean on the shortest stack cause you know he wont put his stack on the line for nothing short of premium. These are all parts of the game.
There is always going be players whether its this site or any other site and even in the casinos who will not value the price he has paid and go all out, or the people who call you all the way with a draw to hit on the river, this is poker every in one way or another is a chancer, some are bigger than others all you do is make a little note on them and then adapt accordingly and carry on, eventually skill prevails over luck.
My best advice is forget about the past or how you see it changing look at your table, get your reads, look at your cards, play your game one hand at a time, you can't change how other people play, but you can adapt your play to suit theirs.
When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and bully boys'.
M8. its seems you havent read my post,only what you wanted to see.I SAID,i wasen't complaing or moaning about it,i was just giving a general opservation on the game,which was my opinion.Why do people read into things,that are not there,no wonder arguments get started on here.They dont read the posts properly.
Charly I can understand where your coming from, just the other week I could not get players off hands and they always seem to hit me on the river. Whatever I got they got better, but like everyone has said thats not the game changing, thats just poker. Irishrover and Dohh are absolutely right in what they are saying what you have called all these people who you say have no skill, well frankly at some point or another you are just them, you can't say you have never called something found yourself in a tight spot and then hit the river and then ran in shame, or you were big stacked in any tournament and decided to lean on the shortest stack cause you know he wont put his stack on the line for nothing short of premium. These are all parts of the game. There is always going be players whether its this site or any other site and even in the casinos who will not value the price he has paid and go all out, or the people who call you all the way with a draw to hit on the river, this is poker every in one way or another is a chancer, some are bigger than others all you do is make a little note on them and then adapt accordingly and carry on, eventually skill prevails over luck. My best advice is forget about the past or how you see it changing look at your table, get your reads, look at your cards, play your game one hand at a time, you can't change how other people play, but you can adapt your play to suit theirs. Spike2120 Posted by Spike2120
When you complain that players have 'caught on the river' and such other moans, what you are actually referring to is 'short term variance', which basically means you are running below expectation or to put it simply 'getting unlucky'. Overtime, however, this will even out and you will run at expectation and sometimes lower and sometimes higher. I can assure you that if you apply a basic winning strategy, like one that I have detailed in the 'holdem strategy' section, then overtime you will profit consistently from these 'chancers,river merchants and bully boys'. M8. its seems you havent read my post,only what you wanted to see.I SAID,i wasen't complaing or moaning about it,i was just giving a general opservation on the game,which was my opinion.Why do people read into things,that are not there,no wonder arguments get started on here.They dont read the posts properly. Posted by charlyb8
I know you are not moaning mate,just observing.I did a similar post the other week and only stated what i was observing and i got bombarded.Dont worry mate this happens to all of us.gl at the tables dav
In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : I think the original post was concerning tournament play. If so then there is something in what he says. What you propose sounds to be the logical conclusion but it is flawed with regards to tournament play. It will stand the test in ring games but the maths start to work against you in tournaments. In a tournament with any given number of entrants there will always be the ''chancers'' the poster refers to. With the increased popularity of poker in recent years, and more recently on Sky, there has been an increase in the percentage of new players entering tournaments. Because of their lack of experience they are more likely to play the risky hands as would be expected. As you rightly point out the variance related to each individual will even out over time. ie. The 'chancer' will lose more than he/she wins and the maths will be proven. However, in tournament play this has to be adjusted for the numbers of players involved. On a one-to-one basis the maths stack up. In a tournament where the percentage of 'chancers' is increasing the normal expectations don't apply. Tournaments are progressive by nature and not individual hands with a result. As an example, if in a 100 player tournament there are 80 'chancers' and 20 capable players then the 'chancers have a 4 to 1 advantage of numbers. This 4 to 1 ratio has to be taken into account as it is no longer a one-to-one scenario. Making informed judgements against these players is nigh on impossible and the success of the wild calls, against any individual, increases with their numbers. This has been happening across the poker scene for a number of years and is if anything improving slightly as the general skill levels increase. Sky is a young site and is currently enjoying a rapid increase in new players, of whom the biggest majority are inexperienced beginners. Ring games are a good feeding ground for the better players but tournaments have become a minefield which is increasingly more difficult to negotiate. Posted by elsadog
As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years.
"Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math.
Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time. Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament) Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament)
Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time."
This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges.
Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents.
As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years. "Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math. Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time. Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament) Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament) Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time." This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges. Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents. Posted by Deadluck
Your examples given are of course correct. However, by giving specific examples you omit all the other possibilities both pre-flop and post-flop. You are right to say that aggressive play has increased but I think you possibly confuse targeted aggression with mindless speculation. Targeted aggression has always been part of any successful tournament players game. I do disagree with you when you say nothing has changed. This statement, from a player who's profile states he learnt to play poker in January 2009, is rather a bold one.
Consistently achieving success in tournaments was never easy, today it is considerably more difficult than ever before.
As an example of variance in tournament. In my OPINION, nothing has changed in poker other than the fields are in fact *tougher* (not worse) due to increased aggression in recent years. "Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math. Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time. Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament) Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament) Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time." This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges. Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents. Posted by Deadluck
This argument is flawed. You will not be "busted" more than 60% unless you are playing against a bigger chip stack on each occasion. If we double up by winning the first one then we are likely to out-chip our opponent in the 2nd hand etc (certainly during the early stages of a tournament). One of the skills of tournament poker is to preserve your stack by playing against players with shorter stacks (i.e. "bullying"). Calculated aggression wins tournaments generally. People have to accept that lots of other players will play aggressively and take their chances.
In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : Well,well,.well fishy,i'm quite suprised,i thought you would have been the first to answer my post,you've let me down.I havent yet seen you agree with what any one has said on this forum yet.It's very enlightening.The ammount of time you spend on this forum,i wonder what you do at college,learn poker.Will have to tell me which 1 you go to,think i'll join.lmao lmao lmao..Then i can have your opinion and play as well as you do,Please let me know.YOUR biggest fan. Posted by charlyb8
There are plenty of times i agree... i really dont get what your problem with me is? You just insult me all the time for no reason, i have no idea who you are you just pop up! And i go to university not college... kings college london to study law. Have you ever seen me play or seen my record?
Anyone who thinks these so called "chancers" aka donks have an edge over skilled opponents who make correct decisions is not taking the correct approach.
My example was a quote from a simple googlesearch on variance in poker, it's still fairly accurate. And even if you win flips you can still come up against big stacks so yes of course its flawed but it still happens. It was a very linear example for basic purposes.
Also, yep I learnt the game one year ago, but I've played alot and watched alot since then, read alot of books and in fact I'm now a professional dealer.
This thread is just laughable. You've got it so wrong. Flame me all you like.
In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : lol thanks... its so strange this guy seems to follow me around after i have posted and have a go at me! ive nvr even played against him...!! Posted by BlackFish3
Maybe he found out you're a lawyer (in training). Then it would be entirely natural for him to follow you around expressing his distaste for you!!! Lawyers are second only to BANKERS in the (un)popularity stakes.
Usual disclaimer - Don't take this post too seriously.
In Response to Re: chancers,river mechants and bully boys : Maybe he found out you're a lawyer (in training). Then it would be entirely natural for him to follow you around expressing his distaste for you!!! Lawyers are second only to BANKERS in the (un)popularity stakes. Usual disclaimer - Don't take this post too seriously. Posted by Seagull158
hahaha! nice post seagull... why are lawyers hated so much?? we work hard... we deserve to charge extortionate fees!
Anyone who thinks these so called "chancers" aka donks have an edge over skilled opponents who make correct decisions is not taking the correct approach. My example was a quote from a simple googlesearch on variance in poker, it's still fairly accurate. And even if you win flips you can still come up against big stacks so yes of course its flawed but it still happens. It was a very linear example for basic purposes. Also, yep I learnt the game one year ago, but I've played alot and watched alot since then, read alot of books and in fact I'm now a professional dealer. This thread is just laughable. You've got it so wrong. Flame me all you like. Posted by Deadluck
Iv watched Enter the Dragon and went to karate class.... but that don't make me Bruce Lee
Comments
elsadog,
its nice to see someone has read my post as it should have been and i agree with you fully.
Irishrover and Dohh are absolutely right in what they are saying what you have called all these people who you say have no skill, well frankly at some point or another you are just them, you can't say you have never called something found yourself in a tight spot and then hit the river and then ran in shame, or you were big stacked in any tournament and decided to lean on the shortest stack cause you know he wont put his stack on the line for nothing short of premium. These are all parts of the game.
There is always going be players whether its this site or any other site and even in the casinos who will not value the price he has paid and go all out, or the people who call you all the way with a draw to hit on the river, this is poker every in one way or another is a chancer, some are bigger than others all you do is make a little note on them and then adapt accordingly and carry on, eventually skill prevails over luck.
My best advice is forget about the past or how you see it changing look at your table, get your reads, look at your cards, play your game one hand at a time, you can't change how other people play, but you can adapt your play to suit theirs.
Spike2120
M8. its seems you havent read my post,only what you wanted to see.I SAID,i wasen't complaing or moaning about it,i was just giving a general opservation on the game,which was my opinion.Why do people read into things,that are not there,no wonder arguments get started on here.They dont read the posts properly.
"Say that you manage to get your money into the middle 3 times during the early to middle stages of a poker tournament as a significant favorite. Once with an over-pair and twice while dominating a smaller ace with an Ace-King. You are more likely to be out than to have a big chip stack according to the math.
Hand 1: KK vs JJ – You win 80% of the time.
Even though you got your money in as a big favorite all 3 times you will be busted more than 60% of the time."Hand 2: AK vs A9 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 80% = 56% Still In Tournament)
Hand 3: AK vs A6 – You win 70% of the time (70% of 56% = 39% Still In Tournament)
This example shows, using simple math, how variance plays such a HUGE part in tournament poker. That even when you are 70-80% favourites, after just 3 hands you are only in the tournament around 1/3rd of the time. Now factor in the occasions where you are actually an underdog, and you will begin to see that no matter what field you are up against, even as a more skilled opponent you face massive challenges.
Variance. Poker's the same game it was for the last few years. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can control yourself and improve your ability to manipulate your opponents.
You will not be "busted" more than 60% unless you are playing against a bigger chip stack on each occasion.
If we double up by winning the first one then we are likely to out-chip our opponent in the 2nd hand etc (certainly during the early stages of a tournament).
One of the skills of tournament poker is to preserve your stack by playing against players with shorter stacks (i.e. "bullying").
Calculated aggression wins tournaments generally.
People have to accept that lots of other players will play aggressively and take their chances.
Have you ever seen me play or seen my record?
lol very nicely answered blackfish! - Used to pee me off too when people asked me how college was going grr
Nice reply tho
DOHH
My example was a quote from a simple googlesearch on variance in poker, it's still fairly accurate. And even if you win flips you can still come up against big stacks so yes of course its flawed but it still happens. It was a very linear example for basic purposes.
Also, yep I learnt the game one year ago, but I've played alot and watched alot since then, read alot of books and in fact I'm now a professional dealer.
This thread is just laughable. You've got it so wrong. Flame me all you like.
I also happen to (strongly) disagree with the OP.
Usual disclaimer - Don't take this post too seriously.
Edit: Touché