Shoving range late in a tournament

thisltedu

I am going to try to post hands for comments. This is the first try so forgive if it is badly posted.

A simple hand but a complex question. What is a good shoving range in this situation. It was the 9.30 £10 BH seven left. in the SB with 11 BBs. BB had been playing quite tight and has about 22 BBs. Should I have shoved and what range would everyone go with in this situation?

Donald

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancethislteduSmall blind1500.001500.0034342.00higgibyinBig blind3000.004500.0053379.50 Your hole cards

• 2
• A

   jidassRaise6000.0010500.0076385.00smith1408FoldthislteduAll-in34342.0044842.000.00higgibyinAll-in53379.5098221.500.00jidassFoldhiggibyinUnmatched bet20537.5077684.0020537.50thislteduShow

• 2
• A

higgibyinShow

• K
• A

Flop  

• 3
• 6
• J

   Turn  

• 7

   River  

• 5

   higgibyinWinAce high77684.0098221.50

thisltedu

In Response to Shoving range late in a tournament:

I am going to try to post hands for comments. This is the first try so forgive if it is badly posted. A simple hand but a complex question. What is a good shoving range in this situation. It was the 9.30 £10 BH seven left. in the SB with 11 BBs. BB had been playing quite tight and has about 22 BBs. Should I have shoved and what range would everyone go with in this situation? Donald PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancethislteduSmall blind1500.001500.0034342.00higgibyinBig blind3000.004500.0053379.50 Your hole cards 2 A    jidassRaise6000.0010500.0076385.00 smith1408 FoldthislteduAll-in34342.0044842.000.00higgibyinAll-in53379.5098221.500.00jidassFoldhiggibyinUnmatched bet20537.5077684.0020537.50thislteduShow 2 A higgibyinShow K A Flop   3 6 J    Turn   7    River   5    higgibyinWinAce high77684.0098221.50
Posted by thisltedu

OK sorry didn't post the hand properly. I tried to copy and past it in. Is there a better way of posting the hand?

I had A2 suited.

FeelGroggy

I'm not an expert at the push or fold game but I think any ace on the sb for 11bb  can be shoved profitably.

If he's tight as you say you could argue for minraising and folding if he jams, but this can lead to difficulties postflop if he calls. In this spot I'd probably just go all in.

omm

I think you would be surprised at how wide you should optimally be shoving here, I've been doing a lot of studying lately specifically for 6 max no antes from various positions, according to the push/fold chart I use in the sb from a 10bb stack you should be shoving 56% (754/1326) of hands and the range would look something like this: Ax, Kx, Q2s+, Q8o+, J3s+, J8o+, T4s+, t8o+, 95s+, 97o+, 85s+, 87o+, 74s+, 76o, 64s+, 53s+. 

Surprised? Now of course this would be if everyone was playing optimally which I doubt is ever going to happen so you would certainly have to judge your range based on other factors like what you have already stated, How tight, How often the BB defends, what there stack size is, Bubble, etc etc. 

(I'm not saying that this is the perfect stratergy as I'm sure there will be plenty of other info available to advocate different ranges, it's just the one I am basing my study on) 

omm

Forgot to put 22+

MattBates

It is correct to shove. What I have found some people find hard is they shove a correct range and lose then question the shove. Blind on blind we often get a fold. We can also win a lot when called but sometimes we will get called and lose. We should always think about ranges but blind on blind with a2 suited is a jam and I am fairly happy about it with those stacks. 

thisltedu

Thanks guys for your feedback. I thought I was correct to shove but with Ax when called I'm often dominated and of course remember those rather than the times it gets through or when I'm behind and still win.

Great analysis of the range to shove omm.  And Matt appologies again. I was the donk that called your flop all in at the UKPS when you had 2 pair and I had Top pair top kicker and rivered the A. Still don't know if I was correct to call.

The follow up question especially to you omm is what would be your calling range in the BB in the same situation?

Donald

omm

In Response to Re: Shoving range late in a tournament:

Thanks guys for your feedback. I thought I was correct to shove but with Ax when called I'm often dominated and of course remember those rather than the times it gets through or when I'm behind and still win. Great analysis of the range to shove omm.  And Matt appologies again. I was the donk that called your flop all in at the UKPS when you had 2 pair and I had Top pair top kicker and rivered the A. Still don't know if I was correct to call. The follow up question especially to you omm is what would be your calling range in the BB in the same situation? Donald
Posted by thisltedu

Against the range I have said we would be 54.84% fav if we had a calling range of: (for 11bb effective)

22+, Ax, k2s+, k6o+, q7s+, q9o+, j8s+, JTo, t9s. 

Although I will stress that this is only if the sb is shoving optimally which will rarely happen. 

If you download Equilab from pokerstrategy it has pre defined ranges but you can also add in your own, I have added Nash and play around with the different positions, BBs and ranges, als good for reviewing once you have played.

Also beware, if you start calling and shoving wide and winning you may get berated in the chat box as is common these days amoungst people that haven't got a clue but think they have. 

TeddyBloat

A2 is a very clear shove SB v BB when its folded to you.

I'd be careful with the bottom end of the NASH shove range, especially towards the end of tournaments.

53s for example is only 0.03bb bettter shoved than folded at the equilibrium. Even against a tighter and more reasonable calling range you are looking at ending the hand with 10.6bb instead of 10.5bb when you fold. its a high vairance play with a small expectation and very high regret, as when called you are always a huge dog and are risking busting for that 0.1bb gain in expected stack size.

if villain calls wider than NASH then many of the NASH push hands become very unprofiatble.

Also being better pushed than folded isnt a good metric by which to judge if pushing is good.

At the equilibrium J8o is .05bb better pushed than folded. the equivilent of winning 27.5% of a limped pot. Easily achievable by J8o v most opponents. and much lower variance.

At the other end there will be better ways to play AA than shoving it.

------

Use reads before charts

NASH stinks, and is near always best forgotton about.

Construct your own ranges using realistic CALL and SHOVE ranges

omm

In Response to Re: Shoving range late in a tournament:

A2 is a very clear shove SB v BB when its folded to you. I'd be careful with the bottom end of the NASH shove range, especially towards the end of tournaments. 53s for example is only 0.03bb bettter shoved than folded at the equilibrium. Even against a tighter and more reasonable calling range you are looking at ending the hand with 10.6bb instead of 10.5bb when you fold. its a high vairance play with a small expectation and very high regret, as when called you are always a huge dog and are risking busting for that 0.1bb gain in expected stack size. if villain calls wider than NASH then many of the NASH push hands become very unprofiatble. Also being better pushed than folded isnt a good metric by which to judge if pushing is good. At the equilibrium J8o is .05bb better pushed than folded. the equivilent of winning 27.5% of a limped pot. Easily achievable by J8o v most opponents. and much lower variance. At the other end there will be better ways to play AA than shoving it. ------ Use reads before charts NASH stinks, and is near always best forgotton about. Construct your own ranges using realistic CALL and SHOVE ranges
Posted by TeddyBloat

I can understand that NASH may not be used or even known about by the majority of players but to say it Stinks goes abit far IMO, of course we agree it shouldn't be followed to the letter as there are so many dynamics in a game but it does certain give a starting point and some good grounding if used properly, if someone doesn't want to shove as wide as it recommends then all they have to do is narrow the range already there. No need to reinvent the wheel. 

omm

It would be actually interesting to see the results of a heads up match based solely on using NASH optimally, I fear though the games would have to go on for a good while to make the sample size valid. 

TeddyBloat

a mixed strategy would CRUSH someone using NASH push fold.

it wouldnt even be close.

be like putting ken dodd and his tickling stick in a ring with mike tyson holding a baseball bat.

TeddyBloat

even at 11bb.

it would get worse the deeper the stacks are