theres getting it in good and getting it in good.

mumsie

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
qqqq	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£23.22
mumsie	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£33.28
	Your hole cards	7 5
alancarr12	Fold
xxxxx	Raise		£0.60	£1.05	£55.23
tappazuki	Fold
qqqq	Call		£0.45	£1.50	£22.77
mumsie	Call		£0.30	£1.80	£32.98
Flop
		5 5 J
qqqq	Bet		£0.90	£2.70	£21.87
mumsie	Call		£0.90	£3.60	£32.08
xxxxx	Call		£0.90	£4.50	£54.33
Turn
		9
qqqq	Bet		£2.25	£6.75	£19.62
mumsie	Call		£2.25	£9.00	£29.83
xxxxx	Raise		£4.50	£13.50	£49.83
qqqq	Call		£2.25	£15.75	£17.37
mumsie	All-in		£29.83	£45.58	£0.00
xxxxx	Fold
qqqq	Fold
mumsie	Muck
mumsie	Win		£17.10		£17.10
mumsie	Return		£27.58	£0.90	£44.68

mumsie

I take my 5/1 odds OOP here and hit.

Was my shove me running scared or was it the only choice?

This sessions notes on xxxxxx, were building history this session

Hes, active and his 3bets genuine but small.

3bets (too small) a utg rse on Btn with AcQc
fires all streets with improving draws 8 9 Tc Kc 2
---------------------------------------------

Gets in cheap multi, fires out on a T9x flop with A9s
----------------------------

3bets (too small) IP with 88, PSB cbets a Kxx flop,I flat with KJs hits an 8 OTT , 50% pot, calls my shove
I lose.
-------------------------------------------------------

competes blind Q9, takes stab at A9x flop, checks after all streets unimproved
----------------------------------------------

limps in J4s in LP
------------------------------------------------

hhyftrftdr

Whatever you do you're gonna look strong.

Flat and keep them both in. We don't need to protect our hand vs any draws as there are literally none, and do we ever shove Jx or worse in this spot?

We also have the advantage of being in position of qqqq who has so far donked both flop and turn, so he might give us the leverage we'd like on the river too.

There are so few bad cards (not only in terms of us getting outdrawn but also scare cards for villains depending on what range we have them on) for us on the river, let them both see it!

mumsie

Yes, thank you for putting this into plain black and white for me.

mcglynn07

Mumsie,

This kind of thing happens to me where I shove big stacks and sometimes for small reward or for folds.
I think in this spot, you need to ask yourself why am I raising. What hand do you want you to call me. Better hands will of course likes JJ but that is rare, it happens yes but not as often as you would think. I think here you want to raise on turn when your equity is so big in the hand that you want value from jackx all pocket paris above 55 and all over pairs to jacks. This is unlikely with pre flop betting but is possible. I do not agree with the replier saying let them both see river. I think you should of done what xxxxx did and raised turn because it is clear one of them has something, prob not super good but unlikely both have something that can call.
You have to realise your equity stake in the hand when playing cash and when your equity is over 75% on flop and 80% on turn. The turn is the best place to raise as you can still keep one of them in the hand with a second best hand but not both. Youre hand is still good but not bulletproof so charge while you are good.
This allows you to charge more on the river when pot is at its biggest.
Hope this helps
Danny

hhyftrftdr

I really see very little point in raising the turn. How do you think your hand is perceived by the villains when you pump it up on this board?

I don't understand the charge thing either. Charge them for what? Jx? Raising just gives them the option to get away from that hand as cheap as possible. You say raise the turn but then say its unlikely that they both have something that can call....so why raise? Pretty much virtually flashing the 5 to xxxxx.

We have a (probable) sizeable lock on the hand and 2 others interested in the pot, this is a great spot. And one of them is betting into us! We know there are a couple of cards we don't want to see on the river, but I'm happy to let them both see it as the risk/reward scenario is heavily skewed in our favour.

All IMO of course.

shakinaces

In Response to Re: theres getting it in good and getting it in good.:

I really see very little point in raising the turn. How do you think your hand is perceived by the villains when you pump it up on this board? I don't understand the charge thing either. Charge them for what? Jx? Raising just gives them the option to get away from that hand as cheap as possible. You say raise the turn but then say its unlikely that they both have something that can call....so why raise? Pretty much virtually flashing the 5 to xxxxx. We have a (probable) sizeable lock on the hand and 2 others interested in the pot, this is a great spot. And one of them is betting into us! We know there are a couple of cards we don't want to see on the river, but I'm happy to let them both see it as the risk/reward scenario is heavily skewed in our favour. All IMO of course.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I agree with this.  If I'm going to raise at all, I'd prefer to pop it up on the flop where at least we could be seen for trying to protect a weak Jx hand rather than having 5x. Once we've smooth called both streets we can't raise the turn as we're never bluffing in that spot and are only getting called the times that an oppo does have JJ/A5/99.

Thanks to xxxxx popping it up there is a reasonable chance of trying to get stacks in on any blank river as you'll well sized to shove if QQQQ donks out again.

mcglynn07

Two people call a raise pre flop. Flop is bet and there are two callers. Turn action is bet call by mumsie then a raise and then a call and now it is on you and there is £15.75 in the pot and you are saying that it is wrong to put more money in this pot by raising. That is the situation.  You have got to be like 80% certain you have the best of it here and it is wrong to put more money in. This is not a sitngo or a tournament where you have to be careful woth chips. I could be totally wrong and there are merits to call and to raise. You could get called by pocket 66, 77, 88, TT . You have given your opponents the chance to make a big mistake for it all. The raise could be a re-squeeze or a move or value? You would be suprised what people will call you with through misreading the spot or through spite. I think a rasie on turn is good.
 

hhyftrftdr

The only reason to re-raise would be if you have a very solid read that one of them will never fold a Jack or better.

Its nothing to do with being careful with chips or anything like that. I'm not concerned in the slightest that we might somehow be beat. If we are beat then we are getting stacked, such is life.

If you call the turn then re-pop it when the betting opens up again, then it is just ridiculously face up. Is this ever a bluff? Is this ever Jx? Think its safe to say no and no. Think it is very optimistic that you think 66-TT will still come along for the ride given the action.

''You have given your opponents the chance to make a big mistake for it all''. Quite the opposite IMO, you have given them a chance to pretty much fold their entire range apart from the couple of hands that beat us.

''Turn action is bet call by mumsie then a raise and then a call and now it is on you and there is £15.75 in the pot and you are saying that it is wrong to put more money in this pot by raising''. If you do that, you might as well go in the chatbox and say you have the 5. We're gonna have the chance to get more money in on the river. Especially if the SB donks for a third street.

Raising the turn means you get no more money out of this situation (in a vacuum). Going to the river means you have 2 potential customers to pay you off.

Again, all IMO.

mcglynn07

I think that in a sit n go or a tournament I would be fine with taking a deceptive line and not deterring people from putting into the pot.     I think that cash is a different mindset.    I think that raising flop is a big mistake as you could lose both customers.   I think that someone has something here, not super good but enough to call a raise definitely on the turn. And maybe a value bet on river as people get stubborn and sometimes press the call button even when they know they are beat.  But when the shove goes in on turn now I agree the hand becomes somewhat face up.  But it is all different opinions which makes the game so great.  I could be wrong still tho. 

FeelGroggy

I don't think that Jx can call when we shove. Our hand looks very strong when we overbet jam and its very unlikely either player has an overpair here. I think I prefer calling and leading out for something like £12 on the river to get Jx to call.