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Limping the Button...
jordz16
Member Posts: 2,253
It seems to be happening an awful lot more in High stake Mtt's live and online, I would be interested in reading a pros and cons list and when the best time to implement it would be.
Comments
Its something I've never done but maybe its worth experimenting with
becoming a limper with position was the only way I could beat the game.
I would only look into this if it's of interest to you, though, because it'd take an immense amount of work and the ev difference is likely to be minimal, unless the players you're playing against make significant mistakes against the strategy because they're not used it.
In deeper games, limping the small blind in mid stakes is more of a common theme these days. It's difficult to play out of positon vs a good opponent, and it's hard to realise our equity because the big blind can play so aggressively vs us, pre and post. A relatively balanced limping strategy bvb allows hero to see more flop with hands that would likely be folding to a 3bet preflop, like K8o for example, and we're getting great odds to do so which makes it worth it. From what I've seen from game theory, mixed strategies are very important so I would be a tad surprised if (when preflop is eventually solved, if ever) there wasn't some limping done in at least 1 position, if not all.
Something I do find amusing though: mtt players limping AA with 16bb from MP trying to be cool. They don't limp anything else, obviously. They've just seen some sicko do it once and they start doing it. Or they limp really poor hands from the sb and then justify it with "sometimes I'll limp AA here" - that isn't necessarily balanced, in fact it's most likely not. Balance is very hard to achieve properly and you can't get it by just limping a strong hand every now and again.
In Response to Re: Limping the Button...:
In Response to Re: Limping the Button... : I get the 15/20ish BB benefits but can you expand on the bolded part?? TIA The limp/trap is so obvious when you're playing deep.
Posted by PRees
I'm a 25bb player, so i class 16bb+ as being mega deep lol. but for sure there are still very valid reasons as to why limping will be good at conventionally deep stacks eg 25bb+.
when we minraise too a wide range from the button we can give EV to the SB. the SB doesn’t have to adjust to benefit, we just donate it to him. Basically the SB generally has to play a tight range as he has an uncapped range behind him and when he takes a flop he is in the nut worst position. when we minraise or play a wide range from the button he still gets to play that tight range only the top of his range gains EV.
when we limp we reduce this effect and indeed often the SB will make the mistake of increasing his VPIP more than he should from the worst position on the table by completing with too wide of a range.
against wide 3bettors we can increase /maintain our button VPIP from the nut position on the table.
there are caveats to this. we may want to minraise to attack the BB's EV [when we minraise a wide range the BB receives fewer 'walks', and is denied the very profitable situation of playing IP pre and post against the SB so he loses EV to the SB also].
If there is a good reg in the SB and a weak player in the BB we may prefer to minr our range as the reg will respect the fact he has an uncapped range behind + poor position post and play appropriately tight allowing us to play lots of HU pots in position v the weak player.
at any depth playing IP v two capped ranges when we get a SB complete + BB check is ze nuts.
its worth saying something about shallower play
at shallower stacks 3 bet shoving becomes much more appealling: villains risk fewer BB's by shoving and the reward [blinds + minraise] remains the same. so without limping v competent players we will have to lower our button VPIP. obviously this isnt something we want to do.
we also preserve our positional advantage when we limp as the SPR in a limped pot @ 15bb is going to be similar to a minraised pot at 30bb [ positional edge drops as stacks get shallower].
In Response to Re: Limping the Button...:
the ev between a number of different strategies pre-flop will be very close, including limping/opening. There is an excellent mid-high stakes cash regular on stars that has a mixed limping and opening strategy from every position, and he's a significant winner in these games, which are the toughest online. I would only look into this if it's of interest to you, though, because it'd take an immense amount of work and the ev difference is likely to be minimal, unless the players you're playing against make significant mistakes against the strategy because they're not used it. In deeper games, limping the small blind in mid stakes is more of a common theme these days. It's difficult to play out of positon vs a good opponent, and it's hard to realise our equity because the big blind can play so aggressively vs us, pre and post. A relatively balanced limping strategy bvb allows hero to see more flop with hands that would likely be folding to a 3bet preflop, like K8o for example, and we're getting great odds to do so which makes it worth it. From what I've seen from game theory, mixed strategies are very important so I would be a tad surprised if (when preflop is eventually solved, if ever) there wasn't some limping done in at least 1 position, if not all. Something I do find amusing though: mtt players limping AA with 16bb from MP trying to be cool. They don't limp anything else, obviously. They've just seen some sicko do it once and they start doing it. Or they limp really poor hands from the sb and then justify it with "sometimes I'll limp AA here" - that isn't necessarily balanced, in fact it's most likely not. Balance is very hard to achieve properly and you can't get it by just limping a strong hand every now and again.
Posted by percival09
agree mixing will near certainly dominate binary strategies at the eqilibrium. eg, every HU solution i have seen involves heavy mixing of just about every hand except AA preflop [AA at most depths always minraises].
this mixing means that at the equilibrium the EV of limping v minraising [or shoving if that is mixed] isnt just close, it is actually identical. the mixing ratios occur only for balance / board coverage reasons on later streets.
obviouslly in real play populations will have leaks that we can exploit. that mean we want to break these indifferences and that a lot of hands will clearly prefer one line over another, and we will employ a binary strat.
i cant see any good reason to be balanced as a default esp in MTT's. a lot of hands will be better played one way or another. and often we dont even have to worry about ranges or protecting our overall strategy.
if the MTT pop 3bets wide then our value will be strictly better in our minr range. if they GII more v limps then the reverse will be true.
if lines are close we might want to consider reducing variance and taking the line that has the lower chipstack variance. limping will be a useful tool in this approach also.
But to sum-up strongly consider introducing a limping range when its folded to you on the button. Consider stacks, who is in your blinds, which blind they are in, what their tendencies are and how and why limping or minraising your hand or range will be the better strategy to employ against them
glgl