In Response to Re: Wintwer Giveaway, Saturday - time for the MTT-ers to win a few bob. : Yeah it surprised me as well didn't expect it till after christmas, gonna have a good play round with it tomorrow. Posted by FeelGroggy
they aren't to be used for that kind of filth mate.
In Response to Re: Wintwer Giveaway, Saturday - time for the MTT-ers to win a few bob. : oioi, nice one Groggy. I never expected the IPads or IPhones to be delivered as quick as that, (I think the T & C's say within 28 days) so that's a nice bonus. Posted by Tikay10
In Response to Re: Wintwer Giveaway, Saturday - time for the MTT-ers to win a few bob. : Is Jac35 still waiting for his PS4? Please say yes. Posted by hhyftrftdr
He can expect delivery before the 3rd week of December. 2016.
Tikay i know this is nothing to do with you as you only provide the information for the players from what you have been told by the business so im not blaming you for it. But this is very dissapointing imo how can the most important bit of information for the promotion the prizepool not be available for the players? Secondly the information was not clear from the start of the day. Noone knew wheather the prizepool was divided or split. All the promo mentioned was a share of £2000. The players need to know this information from 12 when the promo opens so they can decide how much there going to play. If someone had of known this information in the morning they may have started playing early as opposed to later. Posted by bearlyther
Morning Conor.
I did send this up, & they have replied.
Cliffs - guilty as charged. Going forward, they will try & address this. Been plenty of things to learn from the WG Promo.
Mitigation - this is quite a difficult Promo in resource terms, & it's been very successful on the whole, so cutting them a bit of slack would not be unreasonable. IMO, of course.
Nice one, didn't think I'd finish anywhere near that high!
Just wanna say again that it's great to see a proper MTT promo.
Usually any kind of MTT 'promo' is something like 'we're doubling the guarantee of the main' and while that's very nice, it almost always meets the guarantee (which is great) but isn't really giving anything away. It's always tended to be that SnG/Cash promos are actually giving away £££ while MTT ones just increase a guarantee which tends to cost vv little/nothing from Sky's POV.
This one actually encouraged people to play a lot more MTTs than normal and rewarded people for said effort so vwp Sky.
Nice one, didn't think I'd finish anywhere near that high! Just wanna say again that it's great to see a proper MTT promo. Usually any kind of MTT 'promo' is something like 'we're doubling the guarantee of the main' and while that's very nice, it almost always meets the guarantee (which is great) but isn't really giving anything away. It's always tended to be that SnG/Cash promos are actually giving away £££ while MTT ones just increase a guarantee which tends to cost vv little/nothing from Sky's POV. This one actually encouraged people to play a lot more MTTs than normal and rewarded people for said effort so vwp Sky. Posted by Lambert180
Hi Paul,
Yes, you are not alone in suggesting that the MTT players get short shrift in Promos.
I don't know the reason for that, I've never discussed it with Upstairs, or even necessarily agree it's true. It's not my business to ask them questions like that.
However, I do have a bit of an understanding of how these things work, & I'd happily try & explain why that MAY be the case.
As I'm sure you will know, I do try & explain things, logic, rationale etc, & as a result I come in for a bit of sarcasm & mockage for doing so. Seems unreasonable to me, all things considered, but there it is, I'll manage.
If you'd like me to open up & explain what I believe is one of the reasons for this, I'm more than happy so to do. It will be my own views, not those of The Business, of course.
Doubt you'll agree, or like it, but it may open your eyes to something I doubt you've ever considered.
PS -I'm a bit busy today, & working tonight, so if you are interested, it may not be until tomorrow. Need some beauty sleep pre-Show.
I can imagine the reasoning/thought process behind it....
I'm guessing it just doesn't create as much revenue as other formats during a promo due to the way the different games work i.e. with a volume promo on cash/sng people have the option to (and do) load 12+ tables and play for hours on end whereas with MTTs, you can really only play as much as the schedule allows so there is a limit to how much someone physically can do.
Presumbably the suits can (and do) look at rake taken from X games on a Wednesday (for example) when a promo isnt running then look at rake taken from the same game the following Wednesday when a promo is running to see what kinda % increase a promo induces.
Although one could say that an MTT volume promo has pretty much never been tried (in my time on Sky) on here so it must be vv hard to know what the impact on rake collected would be without trying
Maybe this recent WG one will give some insight into that ^ If it does create less revenue then perhaps the promo kitty can be adjusted to reflect that (make the prizepool in MTT volume races half the size of a cash volume race etc) rather than just not do them at all.
But yeah I'd be happy to hear your opinion whenever you get a chance.
I can imagine the reasoning/thought process behind it.... I'm guessing it just doesn't create as much revenue as other formats during a promo due to the way the different games work i.e. with a volume promo on cash/sng people have the option to (and do) load 12+ tables and play for hours on end whereas with MTTs, you can really only play as much as the schedule allows so there is a limit to how much someone physically can do. Presumbably the suits can (and do) look at rake taken from X games on a Wednesday (for example) when a promo isnt running then look at rake taken from the same game the following Wednesday when a promo is running to see what kinda % increase a promo induces. Although one could say that an MTT volume promo has pretty much never been tried (in my time on Sky) on here so it must be vv hard to know what the impact on rake collected would be without trying Maybe this recent WG one will give some insight into that ^ If it does create less revenue then perhaps the promo kitty can be adjusted to reflect that (make the prizepool in MTT volume races half the size of a cash volume race etc) rather than just not do them at all. But yeah I'd be happy to hear your opinion whenever you get a chance. Posted by Lambert180
Most of that could not be further from my thinking, & some of it is an assumed given.
I'm thinking on a completely different line.
"Cold".
Your logic, naturally & reasonably, is from the perspective of an MTT player.
I can imagine the reasoning/thought process behind it.... I'm guessing it just doesn't create as much revenue as other formats during a promo due to the way the different games work i.e. with a volume promo on cash/sng people have the option to (and do) load 12+ tables and play for hours on end whereas with MTTs, you can really only play as much as the schedule allows so there is a limit to how much someone physically can do. Presumbably the suits can (and do) look at rake taken from X games on a Wednesday (for example) when a promo isnt running then look at rake taken from the same game the following Wednesday when a promo is running to see what kinda % increase a promo induces. Although one could say that an MTT volume promo has pretty much never been tried (in my time on Sky) on here so it must be vv hard to know what the impact on rake collected would be without trying Maybe this recent WG one will give some insight into that ^ If it does create less revenue then perhaps the promo kitty can be adjusted to reflect that (make the prizepool in MTT volume races half the size of a cash volume race etc) rather than just not do them at all. But yeah I'd be happy to hear your opinion whenever you get a chance. Posted by Lambert180
I dont think you can take too much from the recent promo as anyone who properly went for the promo was kind of having a punt as they were guessing what the prizes would be.
In Response to Re: Wintwer Giveaway, Saturday - time for the MTT-ers to win a few bob. :I dont think you can take too much from the recent promo as anyone who properly went for the promo was kind of having a punt as they were guessing what the prizes would be. Posted by MattBates
I know it wasn't deliberate avoidance and you're just a vv busy bloke Tikay but you intrigued me by saying you thought the reasoning behind a (perceived) lack of MTT promos was very different from what I suggested so I'm still really interested to hear what your opinion on the matter is.
I know it wasn't deliberate avoidance and you're just a vv busy bloke Tikay but you intrigued me by saying you thought the reasoning behind a (perceived) lack of MTT promos was very different from what I suggested so I'm still really interested to hear what your opinion on the matter is. Posted by Lambert180
Afternoon (?) Paul, & a happy non-smoking Xmas to you & your family.
No, not deliberate avoidance, but any reply would need context, if not, it gets picked to pieces, & so that's a lengthy process.
After I offered to explain, I sort of immediately thought "that was a dumb thing to say", as there's no real right & wrong in these things, & people tend to post & form views based upon self-interest. So I decided a better way was to wait until UKPC, then buy you a coffee & sit quietly in a corner & explain it to you face to face, that always works better.
Anyway, I said I'd explain, & now you've asked again, so I'd best be good to my word & give it a try.
You did get half the story right, in your 2 posts on 15/12, but there is a lot more to it than that.
For others reading this, the debate began, I think, with your comment on 12th December, in which you said, not for the first time, something along these lines....
"N1 Sky, refreshing change to see the MTT boys get a Promo".
And I expressed the view that, imo, that's a little unbalanced.
There's quite a lot of disconnect in how Promos work, why they are done, & their cost.
For research purposes, for something else, a few days ago I took a look at the thread in which the new Rewards System (which started June 1st) was announced.
It's a goldmine for psychologists that thread, some really weird things were said, but also for the amount of different people who pointed the finger at Sky & said "it's just Sky being sneaky & reducing their costs".
Nothing could be further from the truth, or more misguided, but these people have these things set in their mind so the comments don't get rebutted.
Promo spend is set in advance, & Promos are mapped out months in advance. (Look out for the next one, early next week), but they are planned right through to June, the financial year end.
And they HAVE to spend £x & nobody gets a medal for spending less than £x.
And £x is a % of total, forecast Margin. (Margin is reg fees & rake).
All that has to be decided is how, & on what Products, it is spent. They HAVE to spend £x, no matter what. It's how The Business works, right across SB&G.
The Products?
Cash Games
SNG's
MTT's.
Cash games get most of the promo spend? Yes, or course. Industry wide, Cash Games are two thirds of total business, with SNG's & MTT's roughly splitting half & half the remaining one third. Sky Poker is in that ball park.
Cash Games.
From a Business perspective, these are reasonably low-maintenance. Set up the Tables, that's it. They rarely change, apart from occasional new products, say, Action Tables or Spin Up Tables.
Staff resource needed to run them? Almost zero, because they never change, & there's no need to worry about structures & all that stuff.
Promos? Easy. Double, treble, quadruple points, points races, etc. And the data PROVES they do their job, which is to encourage more players, to play more, more often. Both parties benefit.
SNG's.
Same as cash games, low maintenance, & don't need much looking after, & Promos work exactly the same as Cash Games. SNG players CAN & DO play more, more often, during Promos.
MTT's.
That's the awkward one, & MTTs are a vey different thing altogether.
In Response to Re: Wintwer Giveaway, Saturday - time for the MTT-ers to win a few bob. : Afternoon (?) Paul, & a happy non-smoking Xmas to you & your family. No, not deliberate avoidance, but any reply would need context, if not, it gets picked to pieces, & so that's a lengthy process. After I offered to explain, I sort of immediately thought "that was a dumb thing to say", as there's no real right & wrong in these things, & people tend to post & form views based upon self-interest. So I decided a better way was to wait until UKPC, then buy you a coffee & sit quietly in a corner & explain it to you face to face, that always works better. Anyway, I said I'd explain, & now you've asked again, so I'd best be good to my word & give it a try. You did get half the story right, in your 2 posts on 15/12, but there is a lot more to it than that. For others reading this, the debate began, I think, with your comment on 12th December, in which you said, not for the first time, something along these lines.... "N1 Sky, refreshing change to see the MTT boys get a Promo". And I expressed the view that, imo, that's a little unbalanced. More follows as soon as time permits. Posted by Tikay10
Don't worry about replying now, I'm happy to do it over a coffee at UKPC too. You should go enjoy Christmas.
Thanks, I forget cos I'm not keeping track really but think its a calendar month+ of none smoking now. Not much point counting when you know its for good
Merry Christmas to you and your lady friend.
EDIT: Too late lol, you've done it now, tyty will go read it now
It's a different product entirely, as the methodology used in Cash Games & SNG's does not work fort MTT's, as you noted in one of your posts on 15th December.
There is only one Main Event per night, folks can't play 2 or 3 because a Promo is on, it does not work that way.
MTT players also have a different behavioural pattern. Many of the bigger guys play 3 or 4 events here, alongside a selection from other sites. More Reward Points ain't ever going to change that.
As a Product, for Staff resource to look after, it takes MUCH more resource than cash games & SNG's put together. I'm sure you can see that.
MTT's are infinitely higher maintenance. Structures, satellites, blind increments, Guarantees, Lobby issues, set up issues, etc.
Schedule tweaking all the time, too, with seasonal traffic going down every Spring, up every Autumn, etc. Then add in weather (bad weather is good, good weather is bad) big televised sporting events - MNF, CL, Euro2016, World Cup, Olympics, time of month (relative to pay week....) & any number of other things affect MTT traffic. Well ALL traffic, but Cash Game & SNG's don't need tweaking or Guarantees being adjusted. MTT's do.
Big "Live" Events are now a staple of MTT & Satellite action on Sky Poker, too, with 2 x UKPC, plus Punta Cana & VLV. These all need bespoke scheduling & satellite structures.
Then there is UKOPS 4 times per year.
Again, each one is bespoke, all the structures need to be sorted, & as much variety as possible included. Then design all the satellites for them. Try getting every one of those right & pleasing everybody.
So MTT's do take quite a lot of resource & work, far more than Cash & SNG's. That's no reason not to promote them, of course, & now we come to the heart of your contention that Sky Poker don't generally look after MTT players with Promos as much as they look after the other guys. In my view, I think they do.
Well you already mentioned the occasional "Double Guarantee" Promo, whilst at the same time, alluding to the fact it rarely costs Sky Poker anything, May be fair comment, but the risk is there.
You never mentioned The Final Table Jackpot either.
When a discussion thread mentioned this a few months ago, you were one of many who suggested without this Promo, you may not play the Mini in future, which suggests you believe it has value to MTT players.
How much value? The Maths guys can take a stab at that one. Historically, it paid out around £10,600 in 2015 (so far) & £21,000 in 2014. Call it £15,000 per year. I reckon expected cost is around £17,000 pa, but no matter.
So that's £15k pa in MTT Promos.
Double Guarantees?
No idea what they cost, if anything. It's a Promo though. MTT players with an edge OUGHT to be more profitable if Guarantees are doubled, right?
UKOPS
Is that an MTT Promo? Arguable, but I'd say it was. It brings bigger fields, bigger guarantees, & for players like you, who have an edge, in theory, you should win more (long term). I'd say it was a Promo.
There are 4 x UKOPS every year.
Freerolls
Every day, & with decent value. The daily Rewards Points Freeroll is advertised as £1,000, but it regularly has added value taking it to £1,500 or so. 5 days per week. That's a cool £400k pa. There's a Daily UKPC Freeroll, too, another £312 per weekday or £75k pa.
Add in the little daily Freerolls, & that's serious money, & it benefits MTT players more than Cash or SNG players, because by definition, MTT players SHOULD do better in them.
Are Freerolls a Promo? I'd say so.
UKPC, Punta Cana & Viva Las Vegas
These are all Proms imo. Anyone can enter them, but who has the best chance of doing well in them? Yup, MTT regulars. Many players farm the satellites for cash, too.
Guarantees.
Well these might not be described as Promos, but have you considered the value to MTT players of Overlay? This happens every week, & especially in the various satellites.
And it is impossible to get that Guarantee equation right. Overlay comes off the bottom line.
It's not given away intentionally, no of course it's not, but its added value to MTT players, more so if they have an edge. How much does it average, per week, across 12 months? No idea, but it's a 6 figure number imo. (A theoretical £2,000 per week overlay in all MTT's & Satellites would amount to £100k pa).
Satellites, including those All-Ins which exercise so many, are particularly prone to Overlay.
Note that Overlay does not exist in Cash Games & SNG's. It's unique to MTT's.
So, add all those bits & bobs up, together with the difficulty of finding means other than all those I've listed above to stimulate MTT play (only one ME per night etc) & it is quite a head scratcher.
Anyway there it is. I think Sky treat their MTT players as fairly as they are able, but it is a complex equation.
I hope that either answers your question, or at least gives you a wider understanding of the elements that need to be taken into account.
Comments
Please say yes.
I did send this up, & they have replied.
Cliffs - guilty as charged. Going forward, they will try & address this. Been plenty of things to learn from the WG Promo.
Mitigation - this is quite a difficult Promo in resource terms, & it's been very successful on the whole, so cutting them a bit of slack would not be unreasonable. IMO, of course.
The Results of Saturday's WG "MTT Challenge" are now up, including amounts won & points earned, HERE
Well done all those who won a few bob.
Yes, you are not alone in suggesting that the MTT players get short shrift in Promos.
I don't know the reason for that, I've never discussed it with Upstairs, or even necessarily agree it's true. It's not my business to ask them questions like that.
However, I do have a bit of an understanding of how these things work, & I'd happily try & explain why that MAY be the case.
As I'm sure you will know, I do try & explain things, logic, rationale etc, & as a result I come in for a bit of sarcasm & mockage for doing so. Seems unreasonable to me, all things considered, but there it is, I'll manage.
If you'd like me to open up & explain what I believe is one of the reasons for this, I'm more than happy so to do. It will be my own views, not those of The Business, of course.
Doubt you'll agree, or like it, but it may open your eyes to something I doubt you've ever considered.
PS -I'm a bit busy today, & working tonight, so if you are interested, it may not be until tomorrow. Need some beauty sleep pre-Show.
I'm thinking on a completely different line.
"Cold".
Your logic, naturally & reasonably, is from the perspective of an MTT player.
Anyway, enough guessing, I'll try & explain tomorrow.
No, not deliberate avoidance, but any reply would need context, if not, it gets picked to pieces, & so that's a lengthy process.
After I offered to explain, I sort of immediately thought "that was a dumb thing to say", as there's no real right & wrong in these things, & people tend to post & form views based upon self-interest. So I decided a better way was to wait until UKPC, then buy you a coffee & sit quietly in a corner & explain it to you face to face, that always works better.
Anyway, I said I'd explain, & now you've asked again, so I'd best be good to my word & give it a try.
You did get half the story right, in your 2 posts on 15/12, but there is a lot more to it than that.
For others reading this, the debate began, I think, with your comment on 12th December, in which you said, not for the first time, something along these lines....
"N1 Sky, refreshing change to see the MTT boys get a Promo".
And I expressed the view that, imo, that's a little unbalanced.
More follows as soon as time permits.
Promotions
There's quite a lot of disconnect in how Promos work, why they are done, & their cost.
For research purposes, for something else, a few days ago I took a look at the thread in which the new Rewards System (which started June 1st) was announced.
It's a goldmine for psychologists that thread, some really weird things were said, but also for the amount of different people who pointed the finger at Sky & said "it's just Sky being sneaky & reducing their costs".
Nothing could be further from the truth, or more misguided, but these people have these things set in their mind so the comments don't get rebutted.
Promo spend is set in advance, & Promos are mapped out months in advance. (Look out for the next one, early next week), but they are planned right through to June, the financial year end.
And they HAVE to spend £x & nobody gets a medal for spending less than £x.
And £x is a % of total, forecast Margin. (Margin is reg fees & rake).
All that has to be decided is how, & on what Products, it is spent. They HAVE to spend £x, no matter what. It's how The Business works, right across SB&G.
The Products?
Cash Games
SNG's
MTT's.
Cash games get most of the promo spend? Yes, or course. Industry wide, Cash Games are two thirds of total business, with SNG's & MTT's roughly splitting half & half the remaining one third. Sky Poker is in that ball park.
Cash Games.
From a Business perspective, these are reasonably low-maintenance. Set up the Tables, that's it. They rarely change, apart from occasional new products, say, Action Tables or Spin Up Tables.
Staff resource needed to run them? Almost zero, because they never change, & there's no need to worry about structures & all that stuff.
Promos? Easy. Double, treble, quadruple points, points races, etc. And the data PROVES they do their job, which is to encourage more players, to play more, more often. Both parties benefit.
SNG's.
Same as cash games, low maintenance, & don't need much looking after, & Promos work exactly the same as Cash Games. SNG players CAN & DO play more, more often, during Promos.
MTT's.
That's the awkward one, & MTTs are a vey different thing altogether.
More follows....
Ha, too late.
As Magnus Whatsit says on MasterMind, I've started so I'll finish......
MTT's.
So, to your issue.
It's a different product entirely, as the methodology used in Cash Games & SNG's does not work fort MTT's, as you noted in one of your posts on 15th December.
There is only one Main Event per night, folks can't play 2 or 3 because a Promo is on, it does not work that way.
MTT players also have a different behavioural pattern. Many of the bigger guys play 3 or 4 events here, alongside a selection from other sites. More Reward Points ain't ever going to change that.
As a Product, for Staff resource to look after, it takes MUCH more resource than cash games & SNG's put together. I'm sure you can see that.
MTT's are infinitely higher maintenance. Structures, satellites, blind increments, Guarantees, Lobby issues, set up issues, etc.
Schedule tweaking all the time, too, with seasonal traffic going down every Spring, up every Autumn, etc. Then add in weather (bad weather is good, good weather is bad) big televised sporting events - MNF, CL, Euro2016, World Cup, Olympics, time of month (relative to pay week....) & any number of other things affect MTT traffic. Well ALL traffic, but Cash Game & SNG's don't need tweaking or Guarantees being adjusted. MTT's do.
Big "Live" Events are now a staple of MTT & Satellite action on Sky Poker, too, with 2 x UKPC, plus Punta Cana & VLV. These all need bespoke scheduling & satellite structures.
Then there is UKOPS 4 times per year.
Again, each one is bespoke, all the structures need to be sorted, & as much variety as possible included. Then design all the satellites for them. Try getting every one of those right & pleasing everybody.
So MTT's do take quite a lot of resource & work, far more than Cash & SNG's. That's no reason not to promote them, of course, & now we come to the heart of your contention that Sky Poker don't generally look after MTT players with Promos as much as they look after the other guys. In my view, I think they do.
Nearly done now. That's my reply, AND the turkey.
More......
MTT Promos
Well you already mentioned the occasional "Double Guarantee" Promo, whilst at the same time, alluding to the fact it rarely costs Sky Poker anything, May be fair comment, but the risk is there.
You never mentioned The Final Table Jackpot either.
When a discussion thread mentioned this a few months ago, you were one of many who suggested without this Promo, you may not play the Mini in future, which suggests you believe it has value to MTT players.
How much value? The Maths guys can take a stab at that one. Historically, it paid out around £10,600 in 2015 (so far) & £21,000 in 2014. Call it £15,000 per year. I reckon expected cost is around £17,000 pa, but no matter.
So that's £15k pa in MTT Promos.
Double Guarantees?
No idea what they cost, if anything. It's a Promo though. MTT players with an edge OUGHT to be more profitable if Guarantees are doubled, right?
UKOPS
Is that an MTT Promo? Arguable, but I'd say it was. It brings bigger fields, bigger guarantees, & for players like you, who have an edge, in theory, you should win more (long term). I'd say it was a Promo.
There are 4 x UKOPS every year.
Freerolls
Every day, & with decent value. The daily Rewards Points Freeroll is advertised as £1,000, but it regularly has added value taking it to £1,500 or so. 5 days per week. That's a cool £400k pa.
There's a Daily UKPC Freeroll, too, another £312 per weekday or £75k pa.
Add in the little daily Freerolls, & that's serious money, & it benefits MTT players more than Cash or SNG players, because by definition, MTT players SHOULD do better in them.
Are Freerolls a Promo? I'd say so.
UKPC, Punta Cana & Viva Las Vegas
These are all Proms imo. Anyone can enter them, but who has the best chance of doing well in them? Yup, MTT regulars. Many players farm the satellites for cash, too.
Guarantees.
Well these might not be described as Promos, but have you considered the value to MTT players of Overlay? This happens every week, & especially in the various satellites.
And it is impossible to get that Guarantee equation right. Overlay comes off the bottom line.
It's not given away intentionally, no of course it's not, but its added value to MTT players, more so if they have an edge. How much does it average, per week, across 12 months? No idea, but it's a 6 figure number imo. (A theoretical £2,000 per week overlay in all MTT's & Satellites would amount to £100k pa).
Satellites, including those All-Ins which exercise so many, are particularly prone to Overlay.
Note that Overlay does not exist in Cash Games & SNG's. It's unique to MTT's.
So, add all those bits & bobs up, together with the difficulty of finding means other than all those I've listed above to stimulate MTT play (only one ME per night etc) & it is quite a head scratcher.
Anyway there it is. I think Sky treat their MTT players as fairly as they are able, but it is a complex equation.
I hope that either answers your question, or at least gives you a wider understanding of the elements that need to be taken into account.
Right, next up, turkey dinner.
Happy Christmas everyone.