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What a quality call!!

PuppetJackPuppetJack Member Posts: 196
edited January 2016 in The Poker Clinic
How can you play against this,.... I mean really.....

Hand History #987912701 (19:36 07/01/2016)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancePuppetJackSmall blind 200.00200.00675.00xxxxxxBig blind 400.00600.002435.00 Your hole cardsA3   Llama86Fold    thedob5707Fold    PuppetJackAll-in 675.001275.000.00xxxxxxCall 475.001750.001960.00PuppetJackShowA3   xxxxxxShow72   Flop  688   Turn  7   River  K   xxxxxxWinTwo Pairs, 8s and 7s1750.00 3710.00
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  • FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 842
    edited January 2016
    In Response to What a quality call!!:
    How can you play against this,.... I mean really..... Hand History #987912701 (19:36 07/01/2016) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance PuppetJack Small blind   200.00 200.00 675.00 xxxxxx Big blind   400.00 600.00 2435.00   Your hole cards A 3       Llama86 Fold         thedob5707 Fold         PuppetJack All-in   675.00 1275.00 0.00 xxxxxx Call   475.00 1750.00 1960.00 PuppetJack Show A 3       xxxxxx Show 7 2       Flop     6 8 8       Turn     7       River     K       xxxxxx Win Two Pairs, 8s and 7s 1750.00   3710.00
    Posted by PuppetJack
    This call isn't even bad. He only has to risk 475 to win a 1750 pot. He needs to win about 27-28% of the time to breakeven on this call. Against your exact hand he actually has a 35% chance to win. If its a bounty it would be a big mistake to fold this hand. 72 sucks but  he's getting the right price
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  • Nuggy962Nuggy962 Member Posts: 1,104
    edited January 2016
    correct call there for sure
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  • yuranASSetyuranASSet Member Posts: 485
    edited January 2016
    I thought that you had said on a previous post that you had A'd your finals doing poker probabilities?

    Am I missing something?

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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited January 2016
    Jack,
    The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.

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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
    Posted by BigBluster
    Eh? How can he stop and go in that spot?
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : Eh? How can he stop and go in that spot?
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Limp from the SB and shove any flop.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : Limp from the SB and shove any flop.
    Posted by BigBluster
    What happens if BB raises? You should be closing the action pre for a stop and go.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : What happens if BB raises? You should be closing the action pre for a stop and go.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    You are correct of course: the strict definition of a stop-and-go involves closing the action pre. You know the point I'm trying to make though.


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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : You are correct of course: the strict definition of a stop-and-go involves closing the action pre. You know the point I'm trying to make though.
    Posted by BigBluster
    Think shoving is way better than doing that ^
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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC Member Posts: 186
    edited January 2016
    Did you steal his blinds before this?

    It is an odd call, but not mathematically absurd and he likely has 2 live cards. I don't think I have ever called an all in with 72 unless the short stack was blinded out.
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  • mrleemr1mrleemr1 Member Posts: 143
    edited January 2016
    Easy call?
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  • PuppetJackPuppetJack Member Posts: 196
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    Did you steal his blinds before this? It is an odd call, but not mathematically absurd and he likely has 2 live cards. I don't think I have ever called an all in with 72 unless the short stack was blinded out.
    Posted by BigRonnieC

    Nope - Bearing in mind this was a DYM, on the bubble,  I was 1st in chips 2 orbits previous but was hemorrhaging chips.
    The last two Orbits my BB had been shoved into & i think the highest card I'd seen AT ALL was a J (maybe with a 2 or 3 as a kicker). - I was trying to tighten up to not blow it by shoving into a bigger hand ( as seems to keep happening) the two shortest stacks had also had 'walks;' in both orbits, so my stack was depleting fast, and the shorter stacks were staying bouyant. (& as all the stacks were relatively short, people were potentially calling wider, but I didn't imagine this wide) 


    **** Edit****

    In the interests of full disclosure have gone back through the last hands running up to this.....


    4s 8d
    Jc 4h
    Ks 8d ( Ok, potentially I could've shoved here as was 2nd to act.)
    4h 6c
    Ah 5s (was shoved into by a smaller stack, if I had've been wrong would've crippled myself) - Perhaps a bit nitty in hindsight, but it just seemed likely at the time that they had a pretty good hand. 
    7s 3d
    Qh 5d



    ************


    I thought that you had said on a previous post that you had A'd your finals doing poker probabilities? Am I missing something?
    Posted by yuranASSet


    No, I wrote a poker program as a software development exam. I'm not an expert on poker probability, although I'd like to think that I know the difference between a good & a bad call. - given the replies on here however, perhaps I have no clue at all. 


    In Response to What a quality call!! : This call isn't even bad. He only has to risk 475 to win a 1750 pot. He needs to win about 27-28% of the time to breakeven on this call. Against your exact hand he actually has a 35% chance to win. If its a bounty it would be a big mistake to fold this hand. 72 sucks but  he's getting the right price
    Posted by FeelGroggy

    I know any live cards as a n approx 30% to hit ( & that both his cards are probably live) but trust me, - this player was NOT calculating pot odds, or probabilities of any type.
    Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
    Posted by BigBluster

    I had a 65%+ chance to double my stack. - how was this incorrect, & if I elect ot just complete the SB, what's to say the BB doesn't take that as weakness & shove? in such a case I have to call anyway right? as I'm not going to surrender 1/4 of my stack & leave myself with 2> BB's now am I? 


    ...oh well. 
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  • alex1229alex1229 Member Posts: 680
    edited January 2016
    Lol, this is a non story. Player shoves, player calls for an extra 200, you lose. end of. stop whinging and move on.
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  • PuppetJackPuppetJack Member Posts: 196
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    Lol, this is a non story. Player shoves, player calls for an extra 200, you lose. end of. stop whinging and move on.
    Posted by alex1229

    thanks for your quality input.  I guess the clinic is closed.
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  • mrleemr1mrleemr1 Member Posts: 143
    edited January 2016
    If this was a mistake its your opponents not yours, so its completely irrelvant. I know its annoying losing to 72 dude but build a bridge time :)
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  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited January 2016
    its very unlikely that calling here is a mistake.

    in pure chip ev its a clear call.

    in icm terms hero would have to shoving ridiculously tight for it to be a fold, and thats if the two folded players are roughly evenly stacked.

    if you turned over your cards pre and showed me A3 i would snap call 72o.
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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC Member Posts: 186
    edited January 2016
    So you had gone from a healthy stack to weak by being shoved on with large blinds?

    If you waited a while to shove (and it seems you did), that would project a tighter image, but with the villain's chips, his big blind (don't know history of you two) he has to call...

    Just with 7 2 seems wrong. 72, J2 and Q3 - I will almost never play those hands out of the disgust that if I hit the board I would have to show hand :D

    I'd have shoved the K8 or 64 previously - the longer you wait, the more you lose in dead chips, the weaker you look and, if you do pick up a premium hand, the less likely you are to get value.
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  • raggy94raggy94 Member Posts: 164
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    Jack, The only mistake made was yours and that was a small one. The villain's call was correct (from the information provided). Your play could have theoretically been better by making a stop-and-go play, on the basis that shoving pre would always get a call.
    Posted by BigBluster


    Go and Go I guess is what it would be called. I think where the theory falls down a bit is that you're basing it being the best play on something which has been contradicted by the OP. Shallow stacked poker people probably make a similar amount of bad folds as they do bad calls.

    Quite like the concept though, wonder if there might be a situation where if we had a lot worse hand and we figured our opponent to be calling 100% preflop we could maybe engineer ourselves a little fold equity freeroll?

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  • RLT16RLT16 Member Posts: 1,433
    edited January 2016
    As a dym reg, I'd be snap calling here were on the bubble with a chance to win, im going to leave myself with close to 2000 chips behind anyway so even if my 72 loses there's still a good chance i cash and as you've only got 2 BB's yourself you should also be shoving any 2 cards so I'm rarely going to be in awful shape. 
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  • alex1229alex1229 Member Posts: 680
    edited January 2016
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!!:
    In Response to Re: What a quality call!! : thanks for your quality input.  I guess the clinic is closed.
    Posted by PuppetJack
    Your welcome - tbf though theres not much else to say? do some studying on pot odds and percentage of what hands beat others, if you had you;'d realise this is a non story.
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