was this just a bad play

weecheez1

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceliam262915Small blind 100.00100.007265.00superyankBig blind 200.00300.0012615.00 Your hole cards1010   weecheez1Raise 400.00700.009371.68riceygFold    cantplayFold    tiger317Fold    liam262915Fold    superyankCall 200.00900.0012415.00Flop  35J   superyankBet 900.001800.0011515.00weecheez1Call 900.002700.008471.68Turn  7   superyankBet 600.003300.0010915.00weecheez1Raise 1200.004500.007271.68superyankCall 600.005100.0010315.00River  Q   superyankBet 600.005700.009715.00weecheez1All-in 7271.6812971.680.00superyankCall 6671.6819643.363043.32superyankShowJQ   weecheez1Show1010   superyankWinTwo Pairs, Queens and Jacks19643.36 22686.68

weecheez1

sorry forgot to blank out names

the gentleman had just arrived at the table so i did not really know how he played when he donk bet it i put him on a smaller pair and my all in was to try and push him off

mrleemr1

If hes got a smaller pair that means your ahead right, so why would you want to push him off this hand on the river? 

Flop: Really big bet here, I think we can be fine with just letting this go, we gotta be right so often, the times were not right are we really gonna call him down without info? But calling is okay too I think, I would call too probably.

Turn: The turn is a brick, doesnt change much, he elects for a really small sizing this time, I defintely just call this, if we were ahead on the flop we are almost always ahead now, so after calling flop we gotta call, feels dirty if he has a draw were giving him cheap price but were in position and its just def a call. Were not getting better to fold and were not folding out draws, but we allow ourself to be pushed off our hand easily or put us in bad spots.

River:

After raising turn (which I dont like) facing this river bet our 3 options are still there (call/raise/fold). Now if we raise can we be called by worst? Clearly not. So if we raise were bluffing, given the action his most likely hand is a jx. Do we get him to fold jx? Well yeah sometimes he folds jx here, but he will find the call sometimes. Hes not folding Qx and def not folding 2p+. So there is some hands that fold but not loads.
If we call we lose to Jx/qx/2p+. We lose to alot, but we beat all draws that missed or air, if he has it. And were getting like nearly 10-1 on our money. 

I would never get to this river in this spot, but given the action, just take your pot odds and call and be right 1 in 10 times

weecheez1

yep think calling was better option the outcome would be the same but i would still have some chips left we were quite close to the money so i think it was a bad play

mrleemr1

Hmm, It really wouldnt be the same outcome. You would have alot more chips. 

Im not a tourn player, but close to the money most recreational players are likely to tighten up post-flop.

I dont think this turn or river play is ever going to be correct regardless of scenario

mumsie

Hi Weecheeze, hope your still slaughtering the B/h's

Preflop, I always peek to see how mant BB i have, youve got 31 BB , so were not desperate here. Its not life and death.

We raise 2xbb UTG, standard.

When the SB comes with us, hes OOP, and I alwas think perhaps hes not so smart or he could be hiding a monster, we dont have reads, rightly or wrongly, thats my standard  thinking. But, Im also on Amber alert.

Flop.

He donks out.

Thats it for me, because I have no reads, I assume im beat. 

He could be donking out with 2 spades here if he is, im making a slight mistake, but im still in the tournie.

I would now be watching his every move, like a hawk,  to see what kind of player he is, how often he flats and donks out, taking notes.

TOurnie survival is about avoiding the bullet, - readless, he fired a bullet at us. duck out. 

hhyftrftdr

Call flop (though folding now is a feasible option)
Call turn
Call river, it's pretty difficult to be ahead but for 600 we gotta take a peek.

''when he donk bet it i put him on a smaller pair and my all in was to try and push him off''.

You're either way ahead or way behind come the river, so going all in on the assumption he has a smaller pair is kinda pointless; generally they'll call the shove when you're beat and fold when you're ahead.

weecheez1

In Response to Re: was this just a bad play:

Call flop (though folding now is a feasible option) Call turn Call river, it's pretty difficult to be ahead but for 600 we gotta take a peek. ''when he donk bet it i put him on a smaller pair and my all in was to try and push him off''. You're either way ahead or way behind come the river, so going all in on the assumption he has a smaller pair is kinda pointless; generally they'll call the shove when you're beat and fold when you're ahead.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

yep in hindsight i see that im only getting called with better a little bit of inexperiance but i will get there probably by 2020

weecheez1

In Response to Re: was this just a bad play:

Hi Weecheeze, hope your still slaughtering the B/h's Preflop, I always peek to see how mant BB i have, youve got 31 BB , so were not desperate here. Its not life and death. We raise 2xbb UTG, standard. When the SB comes with us, hes OOP, and I alwas think perhaps hes not so smart or he could be hiding a monster, we dont have reads, rightly or wrongly, thats my standard  thinking. But, Im also on Amber alert. Flop. He donks out. Thats it for me, because I have no reads, I assume im beat.  He could be donking out with 2 spades here if he is, im making a slight mistake, but im still in the tournie. I would now be watching his every move, like a hawk,  to see what kind of player he is, how often he flats and donks out, taking notes. TOurnie survival is about avoiding the bullet, - readless, he fired a bullet at us. duck out. 
Posted by mumsie

yep mumsie another problem is being too gung ho i dont see the danger till its too late

MattBates

I think you need to think a bit more about what you are trying to do and why. For example our click on the turn, are we trying to build a pot? I cant see a draw folding to this bet, would a worse hand fold?

With the river shove are we turning tens into a bluff to get Jx to fold? On a board where a flush misses jamming the river hoping for a fold is somewhat risky as we may get hero calls by someone thinking we have a missed flush. 

Our opponent has donked out on the flop and the flop sizing seems strong so I think this leans more towards a made hand than a drawing one. I think calling flop is fine but when they fire again on the turn I am leaning more towards a fold. 

As has been mentioned make sure you are paying attention and getting as many reads as possible as this provides extra information for us to make our decisions. 

FeelGroggy

Against an unknown player I'm not loving life when he pots into us here. If i have a read he does this when he flops a strong hand I'd just fold. I'd pay close attention to the hands he shows down in the future when he does things like that so you can see what his hand strength is when he does it. If he always pots it when he hits top pair, then when he doesn't pot out  we can apply a lot of pressure assuming his hand is probably weak for example.

 I lean towards calling and re-evaluating the turn. When he bets small on the turn we should just be calling again here, raising doesn't really achieve much. If we're behind here we're way behind. he could still have draws or a weirdly played 2nd pair.

I agree with Matt its important to try and think what your trying to accomplish when your making a bet. it can be easier said then done with sky's short timer. I get the feeling your logic was something like 'I'm not really sure what he has so I'm just gonna go all in and hope he folds', which isn't the best way to think about it. If you think he has a smaller pair just call and you'll win with your tens, you don't need to 'push him off'

weecheez1

your assumption is 100% correct it will come with time one small step at a time

markycash

Pretty much echoing what has been said. When you open for 2BB's you have a bit of pot control here. If he leads on the flop for like 1/2 the pot then you could call with the logic that you may be ahead or he may have a draw. In that scenario I would be treating it as a float and jumping on any weakness he shows on the turn. If he leads the turn too for a significant amount then I am probably folding without a strong read. When he pot bets the flop though and you don't have any reads I am just folding, your only invested for 2 bbs and can wait for clearer spots.

On the river there isn't any value in shoving. If he has missed a draw he is folding so you won't get paid. Smaller pairs will likely fold. If you really wanted paid more then it has to be a smaller reraise IMO and hope he thinks you missed a draw. As said I wouldn't be looking for extra value on the river in this hand and if I was still there it would be a flat for me. 

Personally though to play this beyond the flop is marginal and read dependent so facing a pot bet I'm just folding and waiting for a better spot.