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Monotone Board

jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
edited March 2016 in The Poker Clinic
Ok so hand below from main last 3 tables and I'm middlish stack. My question is how best to play the flop.

Opponent is a very experienced tournmanet player who would know I'm on the nitty'er side and so I'm happy enough with my flat pre because I'm pretty sure he'll fold a lot to a 3bet pre from me and I'm also pretty sure he'll barrell the flop with a flat pre and check on the flop from me. Really didnt like the one suit flop lol

Don't think I'm getting away from the flop regardless but instead of donking here should I go slightly more defensive/small ball approach to control the pot or am I right to protect as aggressively as this?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
faceit Small blind  2000.00 2000.00 99210.00
jdsallstar Big blind  4000.00 6000.00 72110.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • A
     
banana10 Fold     
XXRaise  8000.00 14000.00 97439.04
Cashark Fold     
faceit Fold     
jdsallstar Call  4000.00 18000.00 68110.00
Flop
   
  • 10
  • 8
  • 3
     
jdsallstar Bet  18000.00 36000.00 50110.00
XXAll-in  97439.04 133439.04 0.00
jdsallstar All-in  50110.00 183549.04 0.00
XXUnmatched bet  29329.04 154220.00 29329.04
jdsallstar Show
  • A
  • A
   
XXShow
  • J
  • J
   
Turn
   
  • 2
     
River
   
  • 9
     
XXWin Flush to the Jack 154220.00
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Comments

  • railtard11railtard11 Member Posts: 29
    edited March 2016
    I think ur logic with regards to flatting pre is generally good. U started the hand with 12bb, so 3betting to any amount other than a shove looks way too strong and means your extremely likely to just have a nutted range. Peeling pre or shoving pre should be ur options.
    As played just look to check/raise allin on the flop. By leading for full pot you allow your opponent to play perfectly. What i mean by perfectly is to get it in with a fairly strong range (and even though your hand is strong enough to get in vs a strong range he is likely to have good equity against us with most hands he stacks off containing one heart), and more importantly he folds his hands with no equity that he will NEARLY ALWAYS stab when checked too on a monotone board.
    So preflop is fine, but just check/raise allin on the flop, your stack is really good for it.
    Dont feel too bad about the result, these hands at this stack depth will nearly always go allin anyway.
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 169,669
    edited March 2016

    ^^^^

    Post more often please Mark, there is not a player on this site that would fail to benefit from the MTT advice you can offer.
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Advice:
    I think ur logic with regards to flatting pre is generally good. U started the hand with 12bb, so 3betting to any amount other than a shove looks way too strong and means your extremely likely to just have a nutted range. Peeling pre or shoving pre should be ur options. As played just look to check/raise allin on the flop. By leading for full pot you allow your opponent to play perfectly. What i mean by perfectly is to get it in with a fairly strong range (and even though your hand is strong enough to get in vs a strong range he is likely to have good equity against us with most hands he stacks off containing one heart), and more importantly he folds his hands with no equity that he will NEARLY ALWAYS stab when checked too on a monotone board. So preflop is fine, but just check/raise allin on the flop, your stack is really good for it. Dont feel too bad about the result, these hands at this stack depth will nearly always go allin anyway.
    Posted by railtard11
    Hi railtard thanks for that, makes a lot sense. I think you have misread slightly though, I have 18bb's after putting in the big blind. Does that change your approach above much?

    From this stack I would normally 3bet AA against a random and try to mix it up a little against regs. 

    On the flop itself (having only flatted pre) I have 68k back (14bb's) and the pot is 18k. If I check and he cbets around half pot to say 9k are you still just shipping all 68k into 27k pot?


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  • stuarty117stuarty117 Member Posts: 1,395
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Advice:
    In Response to Re: Advice : Hi railtard thanks for that, makes a lot sense. I think you have misread slightly though, I have 18bb's after putting in the big blind. Does that change your approach above much? From this stack I would normally 3bet AA against a random and try to mix it up a little against regs.  On the flop itself (having only flatted pre) I have 68k back (14bb's) and the pot is 18k. If I check and he cbets around half pot to say 9k are you still just shipping all 68k into 27k pot?
    Posted by jdsallstar

    Is it so bad to shove pre or would you be losing massive value in the long run. 15 - 25 bigs i find really hard to play in MTTs myself.

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  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,491
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Advice:
    In Response to Re: Advice : Is it so bad to shove pre or would you be losing massive value in the long run. 15 - 25 bigs i find really hard to play in MTTs myself.
    Posted by stuarty117
    We just fold out all his shitt when we do that
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  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    not nai 3betting with 18bb is simply leaving value on the table.

    even @ 12bb against recs i'd click it back and not worry about it at any stack depth. against most regs too. people want to take flops in position. and whilst they will give it the full hellmuth of 'i knew you had aces or kings' the only reason they are able to say that is because you have stacked their draw / top pair etc, innit.

    dont worry about mixing things up. its a terrible reason for taking a certain action. you may as well say 'i am flatting because i am wearing pink socks today'. you shouldnt wear pink socks, and you shouldnt use them as a reason for taking an action if you do. you should only take a line if you believe it is the most profitable line to take.

    3bt NAI . /> flat /> shove /> fold

    shoving is terrible. dont worry about seeing flops. you always have an overpair and you will capture a huge % of any pot.
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited March 2016
    Cheers ted. Excuse my ignorance but what's nai?
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  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    3b nai =  3bet non all-in
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  • stuarty117stuarty117 Member Posts: 1,395
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Advice:
    In Response to Re: Advice : We just fold out all his shitt when we do that
    Posted by Jac35
    yep ur right, suppose i was more looking at the actual hand as the board is scary. 
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited March 2016
    Thanks tb.

    Is everyone check shoving the flop?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Monotone Board:
    not nai 3betting with 18bb is simply leaving value on the table. even @ 12bb against recs i'd click it back and not worry about it at any stack depth. against most regs too. people want to take flops in position. and whilst they will give it the full hellmuth of 'i knew you had aces or kings' the only reason they are able to say that is because you have stacked their draw / top pair etc, innit. dont worry about mixing things up. its a terrible reason for taking a certain action. you may as well say 'i am flatting because i am wearing pink socks today'. you shouldnt wear pink socks, and you shouldnt use them as a reason for taking an action if you do. you should only take a line if you believe it is the most profitable line to take. 3bt NAI . /> flat /> shove /> fold shoving is terrible. dont worry about seeing flops. you always have an overpair and you will capture a huge % of any pot.
    Posted by TeddyBloat
    This isn't against a rec though, its against a very experienced MTT player. 3 betting from ~18bb against this type of player might give them the chance to lay down a large %age of their range pre and be quite happy about it.

    Think its played fine, though the pot donk might be slightly OTT and allows them to play pretty straight up post flop.
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  • railtard11railtard11 Member Posts: 29
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: Advice:
    In Response to Re: Advice : Hi railtard thanks for that, makes a lot sense. I think you have misread slightly though, I have 18bb's after putting in the big blind. Does that change your approach above much? From this stack I would normally 3bet AA against a random and try to mix it up a little against regs.  On the flop itself (having only flatted pre) I have 68k back (14bb's) and the pot is 18k. If I check and he cbets around half pot to say 9k are you still just shipping all 68k into 27k pot?
    Posted by jdsallstar


    ok was late when i looked at this. Yeh if u have 18bb it def makes the hand more interesting. 3betting pre seems fine then, but contrary to what was said above, "shoving is terrible", that is clearly wrong.
    With stack depth, and given were against an aggressove regular player, i feel flatting with the intention to c/r allin is prob the most profitable way to the play the hand.
    I like 3betting if u have a 3bet/fold range here, if ur 3bet would only ever be value then i dislike it and i think its really bad / really exploitable.
    I think given stack depth post, on this board i would just c/r allin yes, but obviously if the board wasnt this "scary" for our hand then we can c/call some boards for sure.

    I think the flop lead is probably the street i like least though, especially if were always lead / getting it in. its important to be balanced against people you play often
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  • jdsallstarjdsallstar Member Posts: 1,675
    edited March 2016
    Thanks Mark, much appreciated.
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