did i mess up be honest

stokefc

so 11 left in the main have 11.3 bb chip leader MR I,m the BB..should I fold pre I opted to call should I fold to his c-bet , when the flop came I put him on the ace possibly the As I didn,t put him on two spades , the turn gave me more outs and that's why I called for my remaining chips was that a mistake , did I have enough play with 35k chips @ 2,5/5k blinds
I wanted to win a main and that was one of the reasons I went for it sh$$t or bust

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
nidge77	Small blind		2500.00	2500.00	45333.52
stokefc	Big blind		5000.00	7500.00	57310.00
	Your hole cards	J 10
devil_tear	Fold
Matzo	Fold
HUMPTY1966	Fold
LThomoL	Raise		10000.00	17500.00	223893.23
nidge77	Fold
stokefc	Call		5000.00	22500.00	52310.00
Flop
		5 8 A
stokefc	Check
LThomoL	Bet		16875.00	39375.00	207018.23
stokefc	Call		16875.00	56250.00	35435.00
Turn
		7
stokefc	Check
LThomoL	Bet		42187.50	98437.50	164830.73
stokefc	All-in		35435.00	133872.50	0.00
LThomoL	Unmatched bet		6752.50	127120.00	171583.23
stokefc	Show	J 10
LThomoL	Show	2 A
River
		8
LThomoL	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 8s	127120.00		298703.23

hhyftrftdr

I think it's close between peeling, folding or jamming pre. Had he been opening most buttons? Been quite active?

I don't think you can call flop, its all in or fold when he c-bets, and its probably all in after flopping about as well as we can whilst still having J high. Also flopping the 8 gives us additional backdoor equity to take to the turn.

If you check jam the flop, yeah this time you still probably get called, but against a range of hands he might cbet with you can still get him to fold. Great flop to utilise our fold equity and we're rarely gonna be in awful shape if called.

Good run though

hhyftrftdr

I haven't cashed in an MTT for 3 years though so take ^ with a bag of salt

chiggypig

If you call and get that flop you have to check/shove, a lot of hands he's going to be opening are QJ/KJ/KQ etc etc and these will fold, netting yourself a nice boost to your stack, and if he has an ace you still have good equity, calling is not good, if you don't hit on the turn you're in a nasty spot and even if he checks back he very likely has a better high card hand so you still need to hit the river or bluff shove which could end badly.

chiggypig

The turn as played is a a fold for me, you still have a bit of fold equity with 7BBs, if you call you're only surviving a quarter of the time and not even getting pot odds for that.

stokefc

yeah should of jammed the flop calling was the mistake.its very rare i get this deep in a ME and my inexperiance showed here

thx for the replies.

you live n learn

markycash

I think the most important thing is to take the initiative at some point in the hand or if you don't want to then to get out early.

The guy miniraising 6 handed has a big stack and could/should be opening with a very wide range that definitely doesn't have to include an ace. If you 3 bet shove preflop then he will be getting reasonable odds to call but it is for nearing a quarter of his stack so you may get a fold from the bottom of his opening range.

If you call preflop then for me the flop is a shove as it is very likely you have at least 9 outs, you can fold out hands like qk that are technically ahead, there is a decent amount of chips to get in relation to your stack. You also have the back up that if he does have an ace or even a set that you have live outs. If you check and he bets then for me it is fold or shove (I am shoving).

You don't have the chips or fold equity in reserve to float or draw simply by calling. When you call the flop 3/4 of the time you will be in the spot you are on the turn where you feel committed to the hand and end up putting it in anyway. By taking the initiative at some point you at least present him with the option of just folding and giving you the pot without a showdown.

Hope the spade falls next time for you

chiggypig

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

If you call preflop then for me the flop is a shove

Posted by markycash

Why donk shove? he calls with basically the same hands, you surely just lose value against his broadways that bluff

chiggypig

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

If you call preflop then for me the flop is a shove

Posted by markycash

Why donk shove? he calls with basically the same hands, you surely just lose value against his broadways that bluff

FeelGroggy

Interesting post.

This shallow I would not be wanting to be just calling too many hands, with most my range i shove or fold. However a hand such as this is a reasonable candidate to just call as it can hit a lot of flops very well and isn't ultra strong already suck as AQ/AK. hands such as 55 or A9o which dont flop well should be hands you either shove or fold with (shove for me)

When we call JTs here it has to be with the intention to check shove good flops for us. For me I would check raise all in whenever we flop a pair, flush draw or some kind of straight draw (flops like Q93 or even 972)

The flop should be a check jam. As played on the turn, if we are going with our hand regardless of what he does, why don't we donk lead all in? our hand is only jack high after all, we might as well use whatever fold equity we have and hope to hit our hand if he calls.

Hope that helps, remember being aggressive is usually a good idea as long as you have good reasons for it

Either way WD for going deep

markycash

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest : Why donk shove? he calls with basically the same hands, you surely just lose value against his broadways that bluff
Posted by chiggypig

If he has even remotely connected with the flop or has a small/ medium pair, hands like k8 etc if we check and then shove on any bets we just don't have much fold equity imo. If we are deeper stacked then sure, it's a different story but shoving and getting him off the pot adds 22.5k to the now 45k stack uncontested. If he has a hand and we are called then there is the chance of a healthy double up and if we are #1 called and #2 miss the draw then it's onto another MTT. I really am not giving a big stack credit for an ace in this spot but we don't have the stack to get fancy imo and most importantly we don't actually have a hand.

If we actually have a hand then I take your point but we have jack hi. If we have a hand then sure let him bet and if he is priced in so be it.

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, could have typed that better but playing the Thursday oh8 games just now

FeelGroggy

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest : If he has even remotely connected with the flop or has a small/ medium pair, hands like k8 etc if we check and then shove on any bets we just don't have much fold equity imo. If we are deeper stacked then sure, it's a different story but shoving and getting him off the pot adds 22.5k to the now 45k stack uncontested. If he has a hand and we are called then there is the chance of a healthy double up and if we are #1 called and #2 miss the draw then it's onto another MTT. I really am not giving a big stack credit for an ace in this spot but we don't have the stack to get fancy imo and most importantly we don't actually have a hand. If we actually have a hand then I take your point but we have jack hi. If we have a hand then sure let him bet and if he is priced in so be it. Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, could have typed that better but playing the Thursday oh8 games just now
Posted by markycash

imo donk shoving doesnt make any hands fold that would bet call off, i just think we lose a bet from the times he bet folds. maybe could argue for 66 77 folding but thats about it. 

markycash

I can see merits in doing other stuff on the flop but we are shallow so I don't think the donk shove is the worst option. Personally I am probably shoving or folding preflop but the main point I would say is to take the initiative at some point and give the opponent the option of folding.

I mean if we shove the flop he is getting just over 2/1 if we check/shove its probably going to be closer to 4/1 hes getting which should make some difference to his calling range which we don't really want with jack hi.

PS I would rarely advocate the donk shove or stop n go but with these stack sizes and no hand...

PPS if we check and he shoves or checks we may lose our spot to pick up some much needed chips (I wouldn't be shoving the turn).

chiggypig

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

I can see merits in doing other stuff on the flop but we are shallow so I don't think the donk shove is the worst option. Personally I am probably shoving or folding preflop but the main point I would say is to take the initiative at some point and give the opponent the option of folding. I mean if we shove the flop he is getting just over 2/1 if we check/shove its probably going to be closer to 4/1 hes getting which should make some difference to his calling range which we don't really want with jack hi. PS I would rarely advocate the donk shove or stop n go but with these stack sizes and no hand...
Posted by markycash

given the preflop action along with our stack we should basically never have an ace, and so he should be cbetting this flop near 100% of the time, he has so few hands here that would bet/call but fold to a donk shove that I really think that there is a LOT of value missed with a donk shove

markycash

I do agree with this example there wont be much difference between his ranges that fold to the shove or fold to a check/bet/shove.

I wouldn't like him to check behind here and the moment to be lost but as you say he should be Cbetting most of the time here.

Moral of the story, I shouldn't post when playing The post and games suffer lol

stokefc

i,ve read and re-read all the replies all fantastic and informative thank you all

i,ll tell you now the adrenalin was pumping and when the flop came i should of used my time bar instead of insta calling his bet , i didn,t think , i would of jammed normally i do it regulary in £2 deepstack yeah ida got looked up but like groggy says aggression could of been key in this situation but as i say i was pumped up and my thought process was muddled 

just FT the two quid deepy so back to normal ha

thx again folks..sean.

MattBates

In Response to Re: did i mess up be honest:

I think it's close between peeling, folding or jamming pre. Had he been opening most buttons? Been quite active? I don't think you can call flop, its all in or fold when he c-bets, and its probably all in after flopping about as well as we can whilst still having J high. Also flopping the 8 gives us additional backdoor equity to take to the turn. If you check jam the flop, yeah this time you still probably get called, but against a range of hands he might cbet with you can still get him to fold. Great flop to utilise our fold equity and we're rarely gonna be in awful shape if called. Good run though
Posted by hhyftrftdr

I really dont like folding pre here. J10 suited flops so well. If button is aggro then can jam if not its one of the best hands to see a flop with, we found a decent flop and should get it in on the flop.