River Spot - 15k High Roller

ALTiltYou

This hand was in the sunday 15k high roller a week ago. tough river spot. If anyone with better experience can give me any tips how i could of played this hand, and critize anything i did wrong in this hand. Also what should i do on the river here? What do you put him on? Sorry Limp2Lose & SoLack, if you want me to take your name out then i will. Music_MattSmall blind 200.00200.0018945.00ALTiltYouBig blind 400.00600.0024530.00 Your hole cardsJ10   SoLackRaise 800.001400.0025099.00KINGBING24Fold    lyonsbob06Fold    Limp2LoseCall 800.002200.0027575.00Music_MattFold    ALTiltYouCall 400.002600.0024130.00Flop  4KA   ALTiltYouCheck    SoLackBet 1300.003900.0023799.00Limp2LoseCall 1300.005200.0026275.00ALTiltYouCall 1300.006500.0022830.00Turn  5   ALTiltYouCheck    SoLackCheck    Limp2LoseCheck    River  6   ALTiltYouBet 3200.009700.0019630.00SoLackCall 3200.0012900.0020599.00Limp2LoseRaise 14800.0027700.0011475.00

weecheez1

I will give it a go although I am not very experienced I think you have done everything right and your flush is well hidden I think you should be jamming over the top possibly facing two pair (solack )and a busted heart draw (limp to lose )on the off chance they have better clubs unlucky

ALTiltYou

Yeah hes good enough to have bluffs in his range here, he knows that solack is v unlikely to call, and i think my bet looks like just a stab at the pot. Could be doing this with a lower flush, although v unlikely i dont have that in his range. Also i have the 10c/jc blockers, so he cant have AJcc/a10cc. I thought he would maybe 3 bet AQcc. He could have the Ac, and turning it into a bluff with the nuts blocker. Not really great at dicepting a hand, so any input is welcome. I'll post results later, and again LIMP2LOSE IF YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO REMOVE THEN I WILL, SORRY IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS.

F_Ivanovic

You should just remove names to begin with if you think there is a chance they don't want their names posted, although I don't think they will mind

Anyway, I'm not sure Limp2lose will have many bluffs in his range in this spot. He could be turning AcX into a bluff but there aren't that many combos of off-suited Ax that he flats pre from his position AQ-AJ (although you would expect at least the former to probably bet the turn for value IP)

AQs like you said he 3bets pre some of the time and also probably again bets turn for value nearly always. And blocking AcTc/AcJc is an important point too. So you only really lose to a worse suited club hand that made a loos(ish) call pre or KcQc (probably the most likely hand combo we can be beat by)

Whilst we lose to few hands though, it's hard to see what he will play like this that then calls a shove. 7h8h is one hand I guess. There aren't many 2 pairs he can have that he plays this way unless he's calling all suited Ax pre - in which case then we have to be very worried he has the nut flush.

I think based on everything I've said, just calling is probably the only option. It also has the added bonus of maybe Solack making a "Hero" call with w/e he has where-as if we shove he's definitely going to be able to get away from his hand.

jordz16

This is a great spot to bluff imo, when there has been a small river donk and a flat call, because its very rare you will be as strong as you are, and the flat caller has a range capped at 2pair at best.  it could easily be a kx hand which has realised its no good so turned his hand into a bluff, and you also have the heart draws and a few other pic card combos. Because it is such a good spot to bluff i think you have to call, id never be jamming it in though, Id expect to be seeing a better flush roughly 50% of the time but even so i think it still makes it a call.

ALTiltYou

Yeah i think my lead looks pretty weak, just looks like a stab. Ofc solack isn't calling a raise, so i also think its a good spot to bluff. Not sure im going to get many more replies, so should i just reveal what i did, or wait? f_ivanovich, 7h8h is a possibilty, never thought of that. Don't think he raises that big with it if at all?

FeelGroggy

I think its just a call, we always beat solack here and limp2lose is definitely capable of a. turning weak sd hands into bluffs/ bluffing a heart draw and b. raising for thin value with hands you beat. I don't think there's much value in shoving here. I expect you to be ahead a fair amount here as think KQc is the most likely flush that beats us ( i think he might bet turn with Acxc). I'd be surprised if limp showed a weaker flush here, I suspect the reason you posted this is because you called/shoved and limp had the KQc :-) I would say KQc is his most likely holding

ALTiltYou

In Response to Re: River Spot - 15k High Roller:

I think its just a call, we always beat solack here and limp2lose is definitely capable of a. turning weak sd hands into bluffs/ bluffing a heart draw and b. raising for thin value with hands you beat. I don't think there's much value in shoving here. I expect you to be ahead a fair amount here as think KQc is the most likely flush that beats us ( i think he might bet turn with Acxc). I'd be surprised if limp showed a weaker flush here, I suspect the reason you posted this is because you called/shoved and limp had the KQc :-) I would say KQc is his most likely holding
Posted by FeelGroggy

Ha, good read. Yeah I called, he had the KcQc. How do you make these decisions in play, as sky timer isn't very much. I feel talking about hands on here and thinking about my blockers, if he would bet the turn with AcXc and it makes

Sense that KcQc.. How do you experienced players make these decisions in play, with such a short timer? To try and work out what he could have? Or is there not one of you that folds this? 

FeelGroggy

In Response to Re: River Spot - 15k High Roller:

In Response to Re: River Spot - 15k High Roller : Ha, good read. Yeah I called, he had the KcQc. How do you make these decisions in play, as sky timer isn't very much. I feel talking about hands on here and thinking about my blockers, if he would bet the turn with AcXc and it makes Sense that KcQc.. How do you experienced players make these decisions in play, with such a short timer? To try and work out what he could have? Or is there not one of you that folds this? 
Posted by ALTiltYou

Its just unfortunate here, even if I think KQc is fairly likely, we only have to be ahead around 1 in 3 times or so to justify calling and I think KQc exactly is the only hand that can play this way that has you beat. Calling here is definitely profitable I would suspect. Its easier when looking over in retrospect to think about what hands they have, in the moment its much more difficult. A lot of the time if I'm thinking about a decision i'll try to think what value hands they can have that make sense and what bluffs they can have in a certain spot and usually if I decide to call (which i do a lot because i'm a bit of a station :-) ) I'll make sure to note down anything important that might help me make a better decision in future spots. 

F_Ivanovic

I actually disagree with Jordz that it's a good spot to bluff (in theory) Whilst our bet-sizing looks weak, with the board-run out our value betting range here should be decently strong - like I can't see us betting AJ here for instance. We can have bluffs, but would we be bluffing this sizing into 2 players? Solack is v unlikely to be strong. However,  Limp2Lose caps his range a lot when he checks turn. As such, he can only have very few value combos OTR - KcQc as has been said (which it turned out he had) AcTc, AcJc (which we block, so are not possible), 7h8h and maybe some Ac8c or Ac9c if he flats them pre. He can't have sets or 2 pair and probably can't have AcQc due to betting turn with it. If he only has 3/4 combos of value then he can only have 1/2 bluff combos max. (So KcQx)

If we reverse the positions/action - and lets suppose you have a weak hand like KcX or even AcX. You check, Solack bets a small sizing and L2Lose calls. Then would be a good situation for you to x/r bluff - since you can have way more value combos as you are no way near as capped - and neither of them are likely to be v strong at all.

To answer above: You just learn mostly by practice. It's hard/impossible to think all this in game whilst you don't have much time to think. Even though I think KcQc is possible and that I don't think he should be bluffing much here, it's never a hand I would fold in game because most players (even v good players) will do stuff like bluff too much in a spot where they shouldn't be bluffing much.

ALTiltYou

Thanks for your replies. Really helped me understand this situation more, with the comments from you guys. Another question... Would any of you even of found yourself in this spot if you was in my position? Or would you have played it differently, or just folded the flop!?

FeelGroggy

In Response to Re: River Spot - 15k High Roller:

Thanks for your replies. Really helped me understand this situation more, with the comments from you guys. Another question... Would any of you even of found yourself in this spot if you was in my position? Or would you have played it differently, or just folded the flop!?
Posted by ALTiltYou

in position i'd definitely call, I think out of position I just fold. When the club peels off and one of them bets again, do we then proceed to call Jack high OOP here? If the Qh peels off are we loving life when we face a bet? Really there are 3 good cards on the turn which are really good for us so I might be inclined to fold here. Once it goes bet call its likely one has at least an ace. They could even block our gutshot outs.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: River Spot - 15k High Roller:

Thanks for your replies. Really helped me understand this situation more, with the comments from you guys. Another question... Would any of you even of found yourself in this spot if you was in my position? Or would you have played it differently, or just folded the flop!?
Posted by ALTiltYou

Flop peel is completely fine.

I think I would have played river differently to you and either go for a x/r or just lead out much bigger. Think with this hand though I prefer leading since x/r might be kinda thin unless your opponents think your capable of x/r as a bluff. Since both opponents are likely capped I quite like a small overbet with my entire betting range. But that's maybe my cash brain thinking - in tournaments, I don't know if you'd want to really overbet here. Betting 80% pot or something like that seems pretty reasonable too.

PBKR

This hand is really interesting and I agree with F_Ivanovic on most of what hes said. I think bet sizing is strongly overlooked here, and you really have to think what your play is on this river. Your bet is less than half pot, and F_I is right people will look at this as a great spot to make an exploitable bluff with the ace of clubs, regardless of whether its a good spot or not. 

Imo Limp2Lose is definetly capable of doing so once SoLack flats, and it doesn't have to work a massive % of the time for this to be profitable.

If you were to have bet say 5,200 into 6,500 (again my views are the same here sizing wise as F_I) it makes it a lot less likely he will turn his hand into a bluff (players tend not to put their tournament life at risk imo on a bluff) and also if he was to raise i think you can actually fold. with your sizing as played i think you have to call, as bet folding is a disaster, which esentially is costing you 14,800 on the end instead of the 5,200 you could have bet, and been comfortable with your fold if raised.