why on earth would someone call in this spot?

Dozza

I've run this a million times through my head and am still unable to come up with any sort of reason for the call on the flop. Anyone?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Tjack7	Small blind		200.00	200.00	10870.00
Dozza	Big blind		400.00	600.00	10825.00
	Your hole cards	8 Q
BABYBOYO	Fold
Seagull158	Fold
Y4JAK	Fold
Villain	Raise		800.00	1400.00	4226.25
Tjack7	Fold
Dozza	Call		400.00	1800.00	10425.00
Flop
		8 Q 4
Dozza	Check
Villain	Bet		900.00	2700.00	3326.25
Dozza	Raise		2400.00	5100.00	8025.00
DAVEYBOY19	Call		1500.00	6600.00	1826.25
Turn
		6
Dozza	All-in		8025.00	14625.00	0.00
Villain	All-in		1826.25	16451.25	0.00
Dozza	Unmatched bet		6198.75	10252.50	6198.75
Dozza	Show	8 Q
Villain	Show	K 6
River
		A
Villain	Win	Flush to the Ace	10252.50		10252.50

scotty77

um he had a FD 

KnackersYa

His mistake was not to instajam the flop.

Dozza

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

His mistake was not to instajam the flop.
Posted by KnackersYa

Thats exactly what i mean Knackers, it just feels so much worse when he calls off 50% of his stack on the flop and calls off the rest of his stack on the turn, then hits his flush on the river. i would have much preferred all the money to go in on the flop.

DOHHHHHHH

Id go 1 step further and suggest shove/fold pre flop (villain), also you calling against a short stack here with queen x aint for me, the implied odds arent there to justify your call....not deep enough to play speculative hands here, wanna be winning pots without showing cards if possible, if impossible, probably good to fold these weak hands.

BlackFish3

hes floated you thinking you could be check raise bluffing or that he might be able to take it away on the turn or river... thats a reason why he may have called.

dylan12

Im with DOHx7 here, personally I don't think you need to get involved in this hand you have a nice stack there and he is short on chips in comparison therefore a danger to your stack no matter what he has. I fold in your position purely because you are out of position playing this hand. He is c betting here on the flop which is standard whether he hits or not, you are just unlucky that you actually hit the flop, if you don't then you must fold and have given the Villain 800 chips and making him stronger in the process. I know this is off the point from whaou posted but with a fold pre flop you would have saved nearly 5000 of your stack - but I do agree with you, he should have pushed either pre flop or definatly on the flop!!

BlackFish3

just to expand on doh + dylans points... what do you do on a queen high flop or a 8 high flop? he may have KQ, maybe A8...

Dozza

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

just to expand on doh + dylans points... what do you do on a queen high flop or a 8 high flop? he may have KQ, maybe A8...
Posted by BlackFish3

the button raise doesnt count for a lot in modern day poker and this player was raising frequently whenever he had the button. With odds of 7/2 i decided to call his min-raise with the Q8 suited which is an above average hand. i would have got away from top pair, i called pre-flop hoping to hit big and take all of villain's stack by the end of the hand.

BlackFish3

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot? : the button raise doesnt count for a lot in modern day poker and this player was raising frequently whenever he had the button. With odds of 7/2 i decided to call his min-raise with the Q8 suited which is an above average hand. i would have got away from top pair, i called pre-flop hoping to hit big and take all of villain's stack by the end of the hand.
Posted by Dozza

but how much would it cost you to get away from top pair? he is probably c betting every time so you cant fold to the c bet, so when will you lay it down? yes this time he sucked out, but other times you may be getting yourself in tricky situations that are completely unnecessary.

Dozza

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot? : but how much would it cost you to get away from top pair? he is probably c betting every time so you cant fold to the c bet, so when will you lay it down? yes this time he sucked out, but other times you may be getting yourself in tricky situations that are completely unnecessary.
Posted by BlackFish3

With top pair against this opponent, i would have just set him all-in after his c bet. if im outkicked or he has 2 pair, then thats just unlucky. Even if he does have me outkicked - there's no guarantee he will call his tourney life with just top pair. like i said, i had no respect for villain's raises - previous showdowns with other players confirmed he min-raises with poorish starting hands.

Dozza

i would have folded had villain gone all in on the flop or bet nearly 50% of his chipstack. Standard c bet tho and i set him in.

big_mick12

I think the question should be why did you call in that spot you have no idea where you are at all its just horrible.

Dozza

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

I think the question should be why did you call in that spot you have no idea where you are at all its just horrible.
Posted by big_mick12

call? raise flop, all-in turn. look at the hand and then read the posts next time.

big_mick12

errrrrrm no sorry YOU called preflop so wind you neck in

Also you should have check raised him all in got the money in when you know your ahead

Dozza

In Response to Re: why on earth would someone call in this spot?:

I think the question should be why did you call in that spot you have no idea where you are at all its just horrible.
Posted by big_mick12

there's no harm in peeling off a flop now and again when you're being presented with decent odds. the only call is pre-flop. i'll make note that your BB is easy takings for next time if you think the pre-flop call is "horrible".

big_mick12

Like dohhhhhh said you would need good implied odds, when a short stack min raises usually means he;s got a much much bigger hand then K6suited but he didnt its just a leak really, if you that bothered 3bet him preflop playin a hand out of position to a short stack is not profitable.

dylan12

Hey Dozza, I think what people are trying to say is that you are playing this hand out of position and it is very hard to play out of position against any villain. You obviously have a read on this player that he has a wide range that he min, raises with therefore, you have a couple of options imo -

1.) fold and wait for a better spot when you have a better hand to take him down
2.) re raise him, he then has the option to fold, I would rather put him all in pre flop if you believe you have the best hand he would then fold and think twice about raising your BB again - this though would be quite excessive but if you follow your gut instinct then why not.

At the end of the day mate, your paying the money to enter these MTT's therefore you are allowed to play them anyway you like, but as I said in a previous post, I would fold and play in position more rather than out of position - just my 2cents mate.
GL to you on the tables

Dozza

Thanks for the advice Dylan and also to Dohx7; however big_mick doesnt get extra brownie points for essentially copying what Dohx7 has already said whilst re-wording Dohx7 comments in a rude manner.

DOHHHHHHH

" i would have got away from top pair, i called pre-flop hoping to hit big and take all of villain's stack by the end of the hand."

"With top pair against this opponent, i would have just set him all-in after his c bet"

Dozza, Ive read through this whole thread, and seen you make the above quotes in successive posts. This tells me one of 2 things, ur either discussing this hand with others, on the defensive, trying to justify your play to others who are doubting it. Its natural to try and defend yourself when you are being criticised, and also to try and explain your thought process. However, I think its more likely, that you were unsure of your plan of action in the hand. Combine this uncertainty with playing out of position, against a volatile, unpredictable short stack, and you're in 1 tricky/impossible spot - unless the flop hits u hard (luckily it did).

I absolutely understand your thought process about seeing a flop with this sort of hand. Ive sent a hand in for saturday night which may highlight a few things you need to look for when playing speculative hands out of position. 

It was almost identical, I ad queen 9 of spades, in the small blind against the big blind, so again I was playing out of position. The key difference is, in the hand, me and my opponent were both 210x big blinds deep. The BB was ultra loose aggressive, with alot of money to lose, the perfect player to take on with a hand like this.

Bak to your post, I think its important you take on board what people have said, because if not, it could hinder you alot in future tournaments. It's not me/others trying to knock ur confidence or put u down, I for one am trying to help u fix an easy problem in your game. Its so simple to do, it doesnt take sill/talent/guts/practise, it just involves analysing the situation, or as TK says, ticking the boxes.

Position! 

Stack Sizes! / in relation to Blnd Levels

Image of opponent!

Hand selection! - (based on analysis of above factors)

I think if you went through these factors in order, you would end up with more negatives than positives, therefore, the fold is likely to be the preferred option. 

Sorry if Iv waffled, I like to discuss technical things with tournament poker, as Im relatively new to playing tournaments everyday,and its maybe the side of poker which lets me down in later stages of tournys. If theres anything u disagree with, plz reply

DOHH

big_mick12

I am not here to earn brownie points off  or to copy what others have said. I just gave you advice and the reason it was like what other posts is because its what was wrong in the way the hand was played. Im sorry if it came across in a rude way it wasn't meant to. I was trying to help you out.