Happy Days returns.........

Tikay10

Tomorrow, for 3 straight days.

It starts at 00.01 on Wednesday & runs through until 23.59 on Friday, so 72 hours of 2X Points on Cash Games & SNG's.

The--Don

Can you explain the logic of these promotions please?

I understand how they're good for you guys as it encourages everyone to load up more tables and pay more rake but for players, especially recreational microstakes players, they are pretty terrible.

All that happens from their perspective is they play in games where the regs:seat ratio is even less favourable than usual for them and they lose their money faster without benefitting much at all from the increased points they earn.

I long for the day a poker site runs a promotion that actually benefits lowish volume recreational players that encorages them to deposit and increases their enjoyment of the game.

Double points promotions, etc are just thoughtless lazy cash grabs that only benefit those that are already doing pretty well.

Jac35

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

Can you explain the logic of these promotions please? I understand how they're good for you guys as it encourages everyone to load up more tables and pay more rake but for players, especially recreational microstakes players, they are pretty terrible. All that happens from their perspective is they play in games where the regs:seat ratio is even less favourable than usual for them and they lose their money faster without benefitting much at all from the increased points they earn. I long for the day a poker site runs a promotion that actually benefits lowish volume recreational players that encorages them to deposit and increases their enjoyment of the game. Double points promotions, etc are just thoughtless lazy cash grabs that only benefit those that are already doing pretty well.
Posted by The--Don

Now I've heard it all

Phantom66

So a microstakes rec player who normally gets 50pts a week can get a £2.30 token for the same volume and outlay. How is that not good for them?

jordz16

Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.

Sky__James

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.
Posted by jordz16

Isn't that Stars new promotion?

Nuggy962

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Isn't that Stars new promotion?
Posted by Sky__James

Please don't mention other sites, this post will be removed as breaches the terms and conditions

Thanks 

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

So a microstakes rec player who normally gets 50pts a week can get a £2.30 token for the same volume and outlay. How is that not good for them?
Posted by Phantom66

They lose their money quicker because they're in tougher games. Therefore, they most likely pay less rake than usual.

All this promo does for recreational players is increase the speed at which they lose their money.

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

Maybe Sky should double the rake so the regs:seat ratio is more favourable.
Posted by jordz16

They should reduce the rewards to regulars and find ways to redistribute the savings to the recreational players in a meaningful way.

I'm with Negreanu on this one. If there are rewards to be given out by sites, they should be to the net depositing players, not the winning players.

Itsover4u

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : They should reduce the rewards to regulars and find ways to redistribute the savings to the recreational players in a meaningful way. I'm with Negreanu on this one. If there are rewards to be given out by sites, they should be to the net depositing players, not the winning players.
Posted by The--Don

 Oh god here we go.....

Daniel negranu is a scumbag who has sold his beliefs for a bag of cash....

Itsover4u

Maybe sky could promise there players rewards then a week before paying them say that promotion has been withdrawn.... in all honesty you don't deserve to play on a site as well run as this.

I hear ultimate bet are making a comeback you could go there?

Tikay10

I fear there is little point in debating this one, but The Don's perception of what happens in a Points Promo is flawed in my opinion. Very flawed.

Players don't move up or down the levels (buy-ins, stakes), they remain at their normal level, but play more games.

I can't think of a single reason why a player who usually plays, say, £22 or £55 SNG's would suddenly move down to £2.20 or £5.50 due to a Points Promo.

The logical likelihood is they would move UP not down. 

IMO, of course. 

jordz16

If players arent good enough they will lose their money eventually anyway, but the chance for them to earn some extra rewards money cant be a bad thing, I highly doubt many losing players will be doubling the tables they play and hours they put in just for this promotion.. 

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... :  Oh god here we go..... Daniel negranu is a scumbag who has sold his beliefs for a bag of cash....
Posted by Itsover4u

Irrespective of your opinion of him, he probably knows more about this subject that you.

Redirecting rewards from winning players to losing players is better for the ecosystem than rewarding high volume players by giving them the lions share of the money put aside for promotions.

For far too long, poker has taken losing players for granted. Regs do absolutely nothing to improve a losing players experience and sites don't do much either. This is why globally, poker is in decline. We need to treat losing players much better and stop pandering to the winning players as much as we currently do.

I'm not suggesting Sky follow the model of reducing rewards and keeping them for themselves like several high profile sites have done. I'm suggesting they just distribute the rewards in a way that keeps the games going by putting most of the rewards back into the accounts of those that lose the most.

MAXALLY

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Irrespective of your opinion of him, he probably knows more about this subject that you. Redirecting rewards from winning players to losing players is better for the ecosystem than rewarding high volume players by giving them the lions share of the money put aside for promotions. For far too long, poker has taken losing players for granted. Regs do absolutely nothing to improve a losing players experience and sites don't do much either. This is why globally, poker is in decline. We need to treat losing players much better and stop pandering to the winning players as much as we currently do. I'm not suggesting Sky follow the model of reducing rewards and keeping them for themselves like several high profile sites have done. I'm suggesting they just distribute the rewards in a way that keeps the games going by putting most of the rewards back into the accounts of those that lose the most.
Posted by The--Don

Interesting points there. It is good to have opinions on here, albeit you will prob get the forum police jump on your case. Sometimes we are not allowed a debate on this forum.

A lovely example of rewarding the rich and punishing the poor (ignoring the rake %) is that a recent winner of a high buy in event was awarded another buy in for another event....whereas a player who had free rolled into the same event, and had aces cracked on the pure bubble, got nowt. Money to money and money talks etc. 

Anyway, good luck with trying to get your views across.

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

I fear there is little point in debating this one, but The Don's perception of what happens in a Points Promo is flawed in my opinion. Very flawed. Players don't move up or down the levels (buy-ins, stakes), they remain at their normal level, but play more games. I can't think of a single reason why a player who usually plays, say, £22 or £55 SNG's would suddenly move down to £2.20 or £5.50 due to a Points Promo. The logical likelihood is they would move UP not down.  IMO, of course.  
Posted by Tikay10

There is plenty of point to debating this one. It's an important topic, especially to the vast majority of your customers who are likely netdepositing players.

You have missed my point, so I'll go into more detail.

I was talking purely about the negative effect this promotion has on microstakes cash games specifically, as that is my game. I don't know enough about MTT's/SNG's to have an opinion on the effect it has on those games.

However, this is pretty much what happens in the microstakes cash games when happy hours run.

The recreational players barely alter their volume, maybe some go from playing one table to playing two tables but it doesn't change much.

However, regs definitely increase their volume. This inevitably makes the games even harder for the fun players because the reg presence is higher than usual. So, a fun player that typically loses at 20bb/100 now maybe loses at 30bb/100 or higher.

This means they go broke quicker, which means they pay less rake and the increased point effect is nullified. Because they go broke quicker, it makes them less likely to redeposit.

If you disagree with my assessment of what happens to the game dynamics when these promotions run, I'd love to hear your take on how these promotions benefit net losing, comparatively low volume players and the ecosystem in general.

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

If players arent good enough they will lose their money eventually anyway, but the chance for them to earn some extra rewards money cant be a bad thing, I highly doubt many losing players will be doubling the tables they play and hours they put in just for this promotion.. 
Posted by jordz16

You have missed the point. See my reply to Tikay where I explain my position in more detail.

percival09

I don't know why people are so hostile to OPs point of view on this one - it happens on here, it happens on 2+2, and I think it's a reasonable point. Not saying I agree with OP, but it's just an opinion - one that's difficult to actually disprove and holds some merit. 

like TK, I'm equally dubious about Don's claims - I'm not actually sure the games would get much tougher, probably a little, but not by a huge amount. But the actual main point of the post, i.e. who the promotions are targeted @, can't really be sniffed at imo, one only has to check out Unibet's apparent recent success to see that type of model can work quite well. 

Also not saying Happy Days is a bad promotion, just wanted to show OP some love

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : Interesting points there. It is good to have opinions on here, albeit you will prob get the forum police jump on your case. Sometimes we are not allowed a debate on this forum. A lovely example of rewarding the rich and punishing the poor (ignoring the rake %) is that a recent winner of a high buy in event was awarded another buy in for another event....whereas a player who had free rolled into the same event, and had aces cracked on the pure bubble, got nowt. Money to money and money talks etc.  Anyway, good luck with trying to get your views across.
Posted by MAXALLY

It's not just Sky, it's a problem engulfs all of online poker.

Way back in the day before mass tabling and rakeback was a way for regs to make money, sites capped the number of tables players could have open and rewards were just a small part of a winning players income.

Now, across just about all sites, we have a system that encourages regulars to grind themselves to dust for a low winrate which is propped up with back end rewards payments.

Online poker traffic continues to decrease year on year because the model is broken. Sites see their profits dropping, so increase rake/reduce rewards and more people get squeezed out of the game.

If you look at a US facing site that has a 4 table cap, low rewards and makes it hard for players to track their results, you see a site that has great games with more fun players able to play against similarly skilled players and have a much better overall experience.

If sites don't shake out of their current ways of working, more and more will go out of business as their traffic drops to unsustainable levels.

Some folk though, are so concerned with their own personal situation that they can't see the wood for the trees.

jordz16

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : You have missed the point. See my reply to Tikay where I explain my position in more detail.
Posted by The--Don

I think its an opinion more than "the point" if a 6 tabling mid stake reg decides he wants to 10 table for this promotion (lets say hes going for priority) and include some slightly lower stake games, then his ability while 10 tabling wll definitely be lower than that at 6 tables so its swings and roundabouts really... the one thing you can say for sure is that the rec player will definitely be getting twice as much rewards money while hes playing

The--Don

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns.........:

In Response to Re: Happy Days returns......... : I think its an opinion more than "the point" if a 6 tabling mid stake reg decides he wants to 10 table for this promotion (lets say hes going for priority) and include some slightly lower stake games, then his ability while 10 tabling wll definitely be lower than that at 6 tables so its swings and roundabouts really... the one thing you can say for sure is that the rec player will definitely be getting twice as much rewards money while hes playing
Posted by jordz16

I'm not interested in semantics.

However, the effect of having a £50nl£40nl reg drop into the £20nl pool to add volume is significant. How significant is a matter of opinion but irrespective of how much worse he plays due to his increased volume, he's still making the games harder for most players in the pool and reducing their winrate (inreasing the loss rate of losing players).

I agree the rec player is getting double rewards when he is playing but if he is going broke quicker, the impact of the double rewards is severely mitigated and I would assume in many cases, the losing players go broke so much quicker that they get less rewards than usual per £ lost at the tables.