So when do we start jamming almost any two?

Tikay10

I'm coming along nicely now with these NLH DYM's, & open jamming AK early is off the menu. I'm almost like a proper poker player now.

As we know, these DYM things are all about the 4 handed bubble.

Ideally, we get there with a nice stack, 4,000 or whatever, but it's not always like that, & very often the blinds are 150-300, going 200-400 soon, & we have, say, 2,000 chippies.

I often find myself in trouble at this point. I can, at a push, bet/fold from 10 bigs, but soon that becomes impractical & we just have to shove & hope.

At what stage - how many bigs - should we be looking to jam (almost) any two? Assume, for now, we are the shortie, & everyone else is snug.

 
   

Lambert180

Personally, the main factor for me is the stack sizes we're jamming in to. Once we're ignoring our hole cards, we're just looking for max FE/the best chance of not having to go to showdown.

For instance if we have 1500 chips and the other stacks are 5000, 3000 and 2500 then generally we have much more FE jamming into the 2500 guy and the 3000 guy cos they can't really afford to call and get it wrong, whereas players, especially weaker opponents, when they have 5000 they'll think they can afford to give us a spin to try and end the game knowing even if they lose they are still in pretty good shape. So it's always better for us if those kind of stacks have already foded before we jam.

For similar reasons, if I'm jamming super wide I prefer to jam when the person in the BB is short (but not so short they fell committed to just chucking the rest in with anything) because a guy in the BB with 5000, is more likely to think 'meh it's only an extra 1000 to try and bust him' whereas for the person with 2500 chips, it's almost half their stack and puts them firmly in last place if they lose.

In short, it's best to just go after people who have enough chips to fold and carry on with an ok stack but little enough chips that calling and losing would massively damage their chances of cashing.

Phantom66

No idea what you are talking about Tikay.

Got to have Ax or a pair surely? Any 2? Whatever next? Getting it in at PLO8 without an A in your hand. Tssk.

Actually, pretty much what Lambo said.

Plus reads on other 3. Generally as shortie we are the one who will have to take the bigger risks. 

Sometimes there are other players not playing optimum strategy which can be a help or a hinderance. The Mega stack who min raises every hand, the middle stacks who still think it's ok to limp at 200/400 etc.

If there is one generic weakness at the low stakes DYMs it is that many players are too tight in their calling ranges on hte bubble and so we need to identify those players and take advantage of that while we have fold equity.

jdsallstar

It also depends on the blind level. As a general enough rule for me I think it s around 10bb's in the early levels, then 7/8 bb's (big blinds up to 200) and as the blinds get bigger that 7/8 threshold probably drops to around 4 (blinds of 200/400 and then 300/600. Always also being aware of who we're shoving into. 

As said above though it's all very dependant on the stack size we're shoving into as well and how far adrift we are of the three other stacks if we're the shorty. Targeting the medium stacks where possible as well.

I think also we can get so low that shoving any two becomes sub optimal because you'll get looked up super wide by perhaps even two players. Plus any two shoves in general are quite obvious in game too a lot of the time and normally you can pick up some sort of semi decent holding if you're keeping an eye on stack sizes at the table and blind levels once we get in and around that 10bb mark.

Just my thoughts anyway some may choose to start shoving way sooner or later than that.

Jac35

I just wait until I get AA or KK before jamming 

Tikay10

In Response to Re: So when do we start jamming almost any two?:

It also depends on the blind level. As a general enough rule for me I think it s around 10bb's in the early levels, then 7/8 bb's (big blinds up to 200) and as the blinds get bigger that 7/8 threshold probably drops to around 4 (blinds of 200/400 and then 300/600. Always also being aware of who we're shoving into.  As said above though it's all very dependant on the stack size we're shoving into as well and how far adrift we are of the three other stacks if we're the shorty. Targeting the medium stacks where possible as well. I think also we can get so low that shoving any two becomes sub optimal because you'll get looked up super wide by perhaps even two players. Plus any two shoves in general are quite obvious in game too a lot of the time and normally you can pick up some sort of semi decent holding if you're keeping an eye on stack sizes at the table and blind levels once we get in and around that 10bb mark. Just my thoughts anyway some may choose to start shoving way sooner or later than that.
Posted by jdsallstar

Perfect answer, thanks, that answers the question.

I'm aware of the "who & what size stack" we shove into, & general 4 handed DYM dynamics, just not used to NL, as it is so different to PL. So it is "how many blinds?" as a general rule I was looking for.

Think I allow myself to get too short, too often.

markycash

In Response to Re: So when do we start jamming almost any two?:

So when do we start jamming almost any two?

Posted by Tikay10

Level 1 I think? Maybe level 2 if you want to let the others fight it out for a bit!

On a more serious note I agree with those stating the importance of the opposing stacks.

Phantom66

A good point there by jd about an any 2 shove looking obvious from desparation.

Much better to get them in earlier with a half decent hand than wait until that point. I think 6-8bbs is the area we need to start jamming a bit light in the 100/200 territory. Unless there is good reason not to elsewhere at the table. 

By light in my case, you know I mean jj+ that sort of thing, might consider AK even as long as it is suited ;-)