We probably dont want to raise call with ICM considerations in play A6s whilst ahead of villans any two range A6s just isn't strong enough to want to induce 4(?) off the money.
Think I'd just pile it in and try take some of the fold equity, most villans may be reshoving wide but probably aren't going to call off with 0 fold equity and a hand like Q4o.
We have all the pressure by monkey shoving, SB/BB probably have pretty tight ranges to call off but by just raising and facing a jam we actually get the pressure back on us, we most likley still have a profitable call if hes jamming any two but I think it'll be alot closer.
This should be easy to calculate the answer though using a program like ICMizer, if you remember stacks etc.
Even if vil is calling off super wide we dont lose anything by just monkey shoving instead of raise calling, Make sense you dont want to lose a 40k pot to SB but you just open yourself up to making mistakes:
To speak more generally here, I don't prescribe to the ethos that no one is playing correctly and SB is only rejamming bladed. Sure I wouldn't raise call SB in this particular spot (esp because alot of people aren't shoving any worse hands here), but you put yourself in a spot where a good player will punish you in these types of spots. I.E. SB reshoves 44's profitably with fold equity when he may need to fold them facing a shove from BTN. So if you do a calculation and find NE solution to be monkey shove but you want to reduce your varience/increase edge and you make assumptions about people your playing against it may work slightly better for certain games and certain oponnents but long term and as you go up stakes the guessing game of is this player good enough to reshove here wide enough will eventually come back to bite you, esp when you have a completely profitable (maybe more profitable?) unexplotable alternative, also if you explotiatively adjust to tight players by raise folding here all the time instead of just making profitable pushes, you wont ever get to learn a proper push strategy for when you are against players who you deem that you cant exploitatively raise fold to.
To illustrate I plugged in a a similar couple values for a 3 off the money type situation, you can see here the sort of thing I was trying to explain, I dont think you raise btn as wide as 38% because your name aint StayOrGo but look at the hands SB can reshove here but cant call off. We are losing money against competent players because we have to fold alot to his reshove to hands which couldn't call off! when we didn't have to get into this situation at all!
I also cant get behind the thought that our edge is so great in soft feilds that we can avoid taking these monkey shove spots. Not only do we allow SB to take some of our EV back, you give BB some too with a profitable stop and go spot with many many hands which put us in tricky spots post in which he easily gets to realise all of his equity by GII with pairs etc, there is not much edge to had when villan can profitably call pre and simply press all in when he makes a pair! IMO we are overestimating our edge by not taking this particular shove and denying equity with the extra ICM pressure.
I'd min-raise button/snap the shove. You're unlucky if he has a hand that crushes you, he's made that move twice before, he maybe had better hands those two times but seen two folds so could open his range against your raises, especially a button raise. I'd be happy to flip for half my stack knowing you're going to be ahead most of the time. If you jam the button, you only get called by a hand that leaves you 25%-30% underdog. You're potentially risking 75% of your stack to win 1.5bb's. The bb has shoved your last 2 raises, if you shove, it takes all his bluffs away.
Angmar2626:
I'd shove AT, there's only 8 hands that you're worse than 50/50 against. If it's a table that has been calling loose, you're getting called by hands your crushing/ahead, a good chance to double to 30bb's. You're in the money, nothing to lose. Without antes, in a non-BH tournament, 15bb's is probably too much to jam, but with the added incentive of your bounty, you're getting called by worse in this format. Even if you get 5 folds, you win your blinds for the next 2 hands.
We probably dont want to raise call with ICM considerations in play A6s whilst ahead of villans any two range A6s just isn't strong enough to want to induce 4(?) off the money. Think I'd just pile it in and try take some of the fold equity, most villans may be reshoving wide but probably aren't going to call off with 0 fold equity and a hand like Q4o. We have all the pressure by monkey shoving, SB/BB probably have pretty tight ranges to call off but by just raising and facing a jam we actually get the pressure back on us, we most likley still have a profitable call if hes jamming any two but I think it'll be alot closer. This should be easy to calculate the answer though using a program like ICMizer, if you remember stacks etc. Even if vil is calling off super wide we dont lose anything by just monkey shoving instead of raise calling, Make sense you dont want to lose a 40k pot to SB but you just open yourself up to making mistakes: To speak more generally here, I don't prescribe to the ethos that no one is playing correctly and SB is only rejamming bladed. Sure I wouldn't raise call SB in this particular spot (esp because alot of people aren't shoving any worse hands here), but you put yourself in a spot where a good player will punish you in these types of spots. I.E. SB reshoves 44's profitably with fold equity when he may need to fold them facing a shove from BTN. So if you do a calculation and find NE solution to be monkey shove but you want to reduce your varience/increase edge and you make assumptions about people your playing against it may work slightly better for certain games and certain oponnents but long term and as you go up stakes the guessing game of is this player good enough to reshove here wide enough will eventually come back to bite you, esp when you have a completely profitable (maybe more profitable?) unexplotable alternative, also if you explotiatively adjust to tight players by raise folding here all the time instead of just making profitable pushes, you wont ever get to learn a proper push strategy for when you are against players who you deem that you cant exploitatively raise fold to. To illustrate I plugged in a a similar couple values for a 3 off the money type situation, you can see here the sort of thing I was trying to explain, I dont think you raise btn as wide as 38% because your name aint StayOrGo but look at the hands SB can reshove here but cant call off. We are losing money against competent players because we have to fold alot to his reshove to hands which couldn't call off! when we didn't have to get into this situation at all! I also cant get behind the thought that our edge is so great in soft feilds that we can avoid taking these monkey shove spots. Not only do we allow SB to take some of our EV back, you give BB some too with a profitable stop and go spot with many many hands which put us in tricky spots post in which he easily gets to realise all of his equity by GII with pairs etc, there is not much edge to had when villan can profitably call pre and simply press all in when he makes a pair! IMO we are overestimating our edge by not taking this particular shove and denying equity with the extra ICM pressure. Posted by SkootaT
If we're trying to be unexploitable in these spots don't we have to open shove top of our range as well? Otherwise we become super capped. Open shoving TT+ for 26bb and no antes does not sound fun, when like you say, icm pressure is on them when we shove.
Not arguing - genuinely interested in your thoughts
Photos still pending approval so that will probably answer anyway once can see them
markycash: I'd min-raise button/snap the shove. You're unlucky if he has a hand that crushes you, he's made that move twice before, he maybe had better hands those two times but seen two folds so could open his range against your raises, especially a button raise. I'd be happy to flip for half my stack knowing you're going to be ahead most of the time. If you jam the button, you only get called by a hand that leaves you 25%-30% underdog. You're potentially risking 75% of your stack to win 1.5bb's. The bb has shoved your last 2 raises, if you shove, it takes all his bluffs away. Angmar2626: I'd shove AT, there's only 8 hands that you're worse than 50/50 against. If it's a table that has been calling loose, you're getting called by hands your crushing/ahead, a good chance to double to 30bb's. You're in the money, nothing to lose. Without antes, in a non-BH tournament, 15bb's is probably too much to jam, but with the added incentive of your bounty, you're getting called by worse in this format. Even if you get 5 folds, you win your blinds for the next 2 hands. Posted by Kevilfish
In Response to Re: Tricky spot with A6s on the BTN : If we're trying to be unexploitable in these spots don't we have to open shove top of our range as well? Otherwise we become super capped. Open shoving TT+ for 26bb and no antes does not sound fun, when like you say, icm pressure is on them when we shove. Not arguing - genuinely interested in your thoughts Photos still pending approval so that will probably answer anyway once can see them Posted by Angmar2626
Well it's only about 14/15 BB effective so shoving all of our playing range is definetly reasonable but i'd be inducing TT(99 probably)+.
AFAIK it's not a spot where we care about being capped at all, it doesn't make us exploitable knowing we dont open push TT+. It's like open pushing 16BB OTB with 77. We'd never do that with AA but it doesn't change the math of the situation. Im probably still pushing hands with mediocre equity postflop against a random hand but good equity against a calling range i.e. AK-Jo etc.
The only thing you'd need to worry about being exploited is if you are inducing TT+ to balance it with some raise folds with more marginal holdings otherwise people can fold strong holdings which would call a shove (I.E. similar to somone who only minraises AA/KK with like 9BB in an attempt to make it as obvious as possible :P and shoves the rest of his range), Taking hands you cannot shove profitably and cannot raise call profitably and raise folding them to balance your induces should turn those holdings into profit aswell.
What I cannot get down with is taking a profitable open shove and turning it into an unprofitable raise call or a probably less profitable raise fold. The profitability of raise folding/raise calling is very player dependent and therefore in my eyes you should not have a default strategy which is losing when you guess incorrectly the type of player you are playing against. If you want to play all your range as a raise here I think you definetly lose alot of EV by allowing reshoves/flop stop and goes instead of playing a small portion of your range polarly that includes hands you cant normally open shove profitably and hands that are nutted.
I definetly think raise calling is good here, you dont need to shove everything but A6s is just not good enough imo
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