2xbb raise, are you a fan?

fi33er

When i started playing poker it was standard to raise 3x bb.  Then end of last year i spoke to a player on here who i respect very much and who is a winner and he said 2x raise in tournies.

  I tried it out, but i seemed to be letting people in too cheap and they were hitting the flop and beating my hands, or not folding to my ak/aq type hands, where as the 3x raise seemed to make more people fold pf. I was being outplayed on the flops i missed a lot.

I have seen a lot of the better players on here 2xbb raise with great success, (vs me espicially!) Is it something I should try again? If so I guess i will need to improve my post flop skills to be able to make the most profit and lose the least on the increased number of flops i will be seeing, espicially the flops i miss....

I am playing tournies more at the moment, any thoughts please?

merlin

Essexphil

In Response to 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

When i started playing poker it was standard to raise 3x bb.  Then end of last year i spoke to a player on here who i respect very much and who is a winner and he said 2x raise in tournies.   I tried it out, but i seemed to be letting people in too cheap and they were hitting the flop and beating my hands, or not folding to my ak/aq type hands, where as the 3x raise seemed to make more people fold pf. I was being outplayed on the flops i missed a lot. I have seen a lot of the better players on here 2xbb raise with great success, (vs me espicially!) Is it something I should try again? If so I guess i will need to improve my post flop skills to be able to make the most profit and lose the least on the increased number of flops i will be seeing, espicially the flops i miss.... I am playing tournies more at the moment, any thoughts please? merlin
Posted by fi33er

Think this depends on various factors.
The most important of these are (imo) what kind of player you are, and whether there are antes.

Antes (where they exist) mean that it is important to get involved in enough pots, which is easier if in cheaper. However, none on Sky.

On here, it is largely a matter of personal choice. I think it is more important to be consistent (so as to be unreadable) than to worry about sizing. If you like 3x, then that is fine (tho risky if antes)-it is important to have a style that suits your play

fi33er

Thanks Phil, i appreciate your opinion. I guess it is very important to play a game that suits your style the most. thank you for your time mate gl

GREGSTER

Hi Merlin - Although important to not vary your raise sizes on your hand strength you can adjust your raise sizing according to your stack size. For example if you have over 50BB's then a 3x is fine (imo), however when you are around the 20BB mark you might want to use the 2x option.

Good luck.
Greg.

fi33er

Yup makes good sense, i will bear that in mind, thanks Gregster. 

Essexphil

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

Hi Merlin - Although important to not vary your raise sizes on your hand strength you can adjust your raise sizing according to your stack size. For example if you have over 50BB's then a 3x is fine (imo), however when you are around the 20BB mark you might want to use the 2x option. Good luck. Greg.
Posted by GREGSTER

Good advice if you are playing LAG (loose aggressive).

 I also adjust raise sizes according to position-tend to raise smaller from early position, particularly early in an MTT

shakinaces

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan? : Good advice if you are playing LAG (loose aggressive).  I also adjust raise sizes according to position-tend to raise smaller from early position, particularly early in an MTT
Posted by Essexphil

Hi Phil, I'm garbage at tournis so accept this is a stupid question, but what is the thinking behind raising smaller from EP?

From someone that plays predominantly cash I take the complete opposite approach - 2x the button because I'm opening a wide range of hands and therefore my average hand strength is fairly weak, vs the tighter range (and therefore strong average hand strength) that I'd raise 2.5x - 4x (position and table dependant).

The fact I don't deviate much from this sort of thinking when I play tournaments is almost certainly a reason why I do so poorly in them!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan? : Hi Phil, I'm garbage at tournis so accept this is a stupid question, but what is the thinking behind raising smaller from EP? From someone that plays predominantly cash I take the complete opposite approach - 2x the button because I'm opening a wide range of hands and therefore my average hand strength is fairly weak, vs the tighter range (and therefore strong average hand strength) that I'd raise 2.5x - 4x (position and table dependant). The fact I don't deviate much from this sort of thinking when I play tournaments is almost certainly a reason why I do so poorly in them!
Posted by shakinaces

Tbh, I agree totally with you. I can't see a good reason to go smaller in EP than in LP. I personally tend to go 3x from every position early doors and 2x from every position as stacks get shallower, but if I was gonna adjust based on position then I'd definitely prefer to do it your way round.

We are always gonna have a much stronger range in EP than on the BTN, cos that's just the way poker works so makes sense to get more value with it, and people will already expect us to be stronger from that position anyway so it's not like we can really conceal the fact we have a strong range. 

Whereas on the BTN I'm gonna be opening loadssss so I wanna encourage people to peel wider and put themselves in awkward positions OOP where they dunno what to do. A smaller raise size gives us a better price to steal the blinds and because it's cheaper for the SB/BB to peel (and there's less in the pot to win) there's less incentive for them to 3bet us so we just get to play more pots IP

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan? : Tbh, I agree totally with you. I can't see a good reason to go smaller in EP than in LP. I personally tend to go 3x from every position early doors and 2x from every position as stacks get shallower, but if I was gonna adjust based on position then I'd definitely prefer to do it your way round. We are always gonna have a much stronger range in EP than on the BTN, cos that's just the way poker works so makes sense to get more value with it, and people will already expect us to be stronger from that position anyway so it's not like we can really conceal the fact we have a strong range.  Whereas on the BTN I'm gonna be opening loadssss so I wanna encourage people to peel wider and put themselves in awkward positions OOP where they dunno what to do. A smaller raise size gives us a better price to steal the blinds and because it's cheaper for the SB/BB to peel (and there's less in the pot to win) there's less incentive for them to 3bet us so we just get to play more pots IP
Posted by Lambert180

Making it smaller ep also means we get flatted by btn, c/o, h/j more often and have to play oop ourselves which isn't fun...

Summers119

Yeah I tend to 3x early on and then 2x in the mid to late stages. My thinking is that the value of chips goes up as you go deep and so 2x does the same as 3x and by 3x it gives more incentives for people to jam over you which is usually not ideal. Also as there are no anties to play for you dont get loads of callers by 2xing. 

Essexphil

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan? : Tbh, I agree totally with you. I can't see a good reason to go smaller in EP than in LP. I personally tend to go 3x from every position early doors and 2x from every position as stacks get shallower, but if I was gonna adjust based on position then I'd definitely prefer to do it your way round. We are always gonna have a much stronger range in EP than on the BTN, cos that's just the way poker works so makes sense to get more value with it, and people will already expect us to be stronger from that position anyway so it's not like we can really conceal the fact we have a strong range.  Whereas on the BTN I'm gonna be opening loadssss so I wanna encourage people to peel wider and put themselves in awkward positions OOP where they dunno what to do. A smaller raise size gives us a better price to steal the blinds and because it's cheaper for the SB/BB to peel (and there's less in the pot to win) there's less incentive for them to 3bet us so we just get to play more pots IP
Posted by Lambert180

That's the beauty of poker-different people play it different ways. I WANT people to call more when I have a better range. I take your point re position post-flop. However, I will 3-bet a min-raiser more often precisely because of that, and take control from there.

 However, the main reason I bet smaller in early position is that there are more people to come, so there is more likely to be callers and raisers. I am always happy to take the blinds from the button.

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan?:

In Response to Re: 2xbb raise, are you a fan? : That's the beauty of poker-different people play it different ways. I WANT people to call more when I have a better range. I take your point re position post-flop. However, I will 3-bet a min-raiser more often precisely because of that, and take control from there.  However, the main reason I bet smaller in early position is that there are more people to come, so there is more likely to be callers and raisers. I am always happy to take the blinds from the button.
Posted by Essexphil

So sneaky

shakinaces

That makes some sense if I understand right, 3x in LP will take down more pots, 2x in EP helping with a tighter range of hands that can call or jam over 3bets.

Interesting debate, some good thoughts on this thread.

fi33er

Yeah it is great to hear the thinking behind what you see the good players do.  I have reflected on what i have read and i think I will adjust my raises as the tourney gets to later stages to 2x. Good luck in the vegas semi and final this weekend guys, I'm not there yet, last chance in the quarter final for me tonight....

LnarinOO

everytime you bet you should be thinking about what you want your bet to achevie..

if you can have something for £2 then why spend £3 on it? you should have a clear strategy for everything you do

deciding how big you size each and every bet you make from, opening pots to cbets and so on, can and will be based on many differnet factors. In cash games where your stack to pot ratio will be higher then maybe 3x or more could be standard until your opponent may give you reasons to change.. or maybe stealing the blinds for the BTT, i may choose a smaller sizing with my whole range if i think the blinds dont defend as much as they should making it less £ im risking for the same reward.

In tournaments, in general you will find that when stacks sizes are deep at the start, ppl will be raising the more standard amounts. As stacks size decrease realtion to the blinds however, ppl will start to open closer to the minimum they can to get the same job done whereas ppl will not willing be calling 2bb out of say a 15bb stack very often as opposed to playing with 100bb stacks it would be very different. 

any strategy you try to implement shouldnt be based on whether you think its the right thing to do, or 'everyone seems to be doing it so should i also be doing it ?' kinda thouhgt process.. adjust to table dynamics and build your own strategy to beat it 

jordz16

3x raising pre is just wasting too many chips when you are late on in a tournament with many stacks under 25bb's who may jam on you. 

My personal preference is 3x in the early stages. 

in the midstages i'll 2x button, between 2x-2.5x from other positions depending on my hand, opponent, stack sizes etc..

Late stages where average stack is say under 30bbs then 2x from all positions. 

Kevilfish

I'll usually raise 3x for the first 3-4 levels and the start min raising when the blinds reach 50/100. There's advantages and disadvantages to everything in poker, you just have to do what you are comfortable with. Try different strategies and see what works in different situations.

I like min-raising because it gives you more flexibility post flop, your c-bet is going to be smaller meaning you have more chips behind that you can put a big bet in if needed on the turn or river without risking your tournament and if it's a really bad flop for your hand you can get away easier, you've only dropped 2bb's and the pot is only 4.5bb's as opposed to a 6.5bb pot if you had raised 3x.

When you're 3-bet after a min-raise, the 3-bet is going to be smaller making it cheaper for you to get involved than if you had 3x'd. If you have a hand that flops well or your deep enough to set-mine, you're getting to see a flop for 2-3bb's less than you would have. In the long term that will add up.

The thing I think people find most difficult when playing post flop after a min-raise, is when they've hit a pair with a big Ace against 2-3 opponents, they'll find it hard to get away from it, even though everything is telling them they're behind. I think to play the min-raise strategy successfully, you have to know the value of hands and how they change throughout a tournament, early on, small pairs and connecting cards are more valuable, late on, Ace-highs and big pairs are more valuable.

fi33er

I have been reading these replys and studying off table a bit as well.  I qualified for the vegas semi after winning a ticket last monday, but I have a show tonight so I asked to play the semi next weekend.  This means I haven't been able to play a vegas tourney since monday. I will be able to play them again from tuesday, so I will get some practice in before the semi on the 15th.  thank you all for your time and input, it is such a good forum on here. Thanks very much

markycash

Nice thread!

As mentioned a lot of it is personal preference. The intention of smaller opens is obviously to control the pot, get more mileage out of our stack and give us more room to manoeuvre in 3bet and 4 bet spots as the resultant 3 & 4 bets should be smaller as a result. Rule of thumb would have it then that smaller bet sizing suits better players more than it suits poor players as in general it should reduce variance to some extent.

It is important to understand the likely outcomes of each option and be content with them. I.E. if you 2x open you will be playing a lot more hands post flop. If you are happy to do this then great. If you want to be playing less hands post flop then the higher end of your opening betting size is obviously more preferable.

Also, while it isn't great to alter bet sizes based upon hand strength. It is fine to alter it based upon (amongst other things) (a) our stack sizes (b) our opponents stack size and (c) our table position. If the open means you get to play the hand in position post flop then we can afford to give our opponent slightly better odds as we will have a post flop advantage so this lends more support to bet sizing in the lower sizing range. If however we are going to have to play the hand OOP postflop then we might not be wanting to give our opponent such great odds to call preflop as they will have the positional advantage post flop and therefore bet sizing towards the higher end of our bet sizing range can be better.

The last part obviously goes for any betting whether it is an open or a 3bet/4bet etc.