Hand 2 UKOPS - JK in SB

markycash

As mentioned in the other post...

Posting 2 hands from UKOPS to hopefully get a little discussion going. They are not bad beat stories as I win 1 and lose 1. I also feel I played 1 well enough and 1 questionably.

The scene: This is a £22 rebuy UKOPS. I think we are still a bit off the payouts with maybe half the field gone.

I have JKo in the SB, it folds around to me and I limp in. I have a couple of question marks in my notes on the BB player indicating that some lines they have taken did not add up to me. 

You can see the action from the hand, what do we do on the river when he shoves?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		250.00	250.00	7033.76
BB	Big blind		500.00	750.00	16967.00
	Your hole cards	·         J Spades ·         K Clubs
Player1	Fold
Player2	Fold
Player3	Fold
markycash	Call		250.00	1000.00	6783.76
BB	Check
Flop
		·         6 Diamonds ·         5 Hearts ·         Q Diamonds
markycash	Bet		500.00	1500.00	6283.76
BB	Call		500.00	2000.00	16467.00
Turn
		·         J Clubs
markycash	Bet		500.00	2500.00	5783.76
BB	Call		500.00	3000.00	15967.00
River
		·         7 Hearts
markycash	Check
BB	All-in		15967.00	18967.00	0.00

HENDRIK62

I'll stast the discussion with a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. What are you looking for when making up the blinds? and how do you plan to react to the potential action preflop

2. What are you looking for when you lead the flop? and same as above

Lambert180

Like the limp pre, it would be my default play at these stack depths. Flop I do the same, turn I might go a smidge bit bigger, we're deffo betting for value here and imo we could get a bit more.

Tough spot on the river, naturally ranges are so much wider when villian has seen a pot for free from the BB so whereas normally we might be able to rule them out, here he can have every single value hand pretty much, Q5, Q6, Q7, 55, 66, 77, even J5, J6, J7 and 34. How many of these he jams 2x pot with I don't know.

We are left guessing here tbh, and left guessing v a 2x pot jam and for our tourney life. Some villians the overjam here is just always weak and just trying to use brute force to make us fold, others it's always super strong and they want to win the max/get our bounty.

Personally I lean towards a fold unless I had some history/knowledge of him being capable of doing this as a bluff (cos very few players are)

markycash

In Response to Re: Hand 2 UKOPS - JK in SB:

I'll stast the discussion with a couple of questions if you don't mind. 1. What are you looking for when making up the blinds? and how do you plan to react to the potential action preflop 2. What are you looking for when you lead the flop? and same as above
Posted by HENDRIK62

Thanks Paul

1 - Trying to encourage small ball poker and hoping I can make less mistakes than my opponent generally post flop. I am definitely not simply looking to hit and am prepared to play pots hit or miss depending on my read of the opponent.

2 - Information. I will happily fold if I believe my opponent, even if I hit but believe I am behind. I will also happily reraise with or without hitting if the situation dictates this. 

I know we are OOP in the SB but we only have 1 player to contend with and are invested. I love little pots like this were we can get a dialogue going through the action. I mean we hopefully have info on the BB's playing style if we have been observing him. We hopefully have an idea of how he reacts to limps from the SB and what kind of cards he reacts with if we have been limping previously. Therefore just the BB check when we limp gives information. How he reacts to the lead gives us even more. 

I also find a a decent amount of players get completely p1ssed off by the SB limps and try to defend the BB too much and you can draw mistakes quite often. I also prefer if possible to play small pots like this than having to win flips all over the place. Granted there does eventually come the time when we need to take on flips and I will vary my play and take flips on etc (mostly based on my and any potential opponent's stacks though).

I am quite aware that my style might be unorthodox and a few people with shove/fold charts etc may be face palming themselves at certain plays I would make but I try to vary my play and be unpredictable in general and it is just my personal style. 

As to how I would react to a BB reraise preflop etc, this will depend on exact reads, stacks, hand strength etc. If a player 'won't tolerate' the limps then it is obviously the aim to find a big hand that is ahead of his 'not tolerating your SB limps so I will shove range'. If they do tolerate it then I try to do as above.

Really good questions!

SJspanky1

It's a fold for me. As Lambo states, Villain can have all sorts of holdings with it being a limped pot and the general Sky MTT population do not normally shove here as a pure bluff. I wouldn't even be surprised to see 8,9 which is pure fishery ofc.

Kevilfish

I'm not a fan of the line taken in this hand. The min-bet on the turn and check on the river is almost inducing the shove, there's so many hands he can do that with, missed diamonds or a straight are the more obvious ones but it could be a pair or even a riverred 2-pair.

I don't think with 14bb's, you're deep enough to be making the bet on the flop with K-high against an opponent that you say takes strange lines in hands, unless it's an opponent that will always be folding when they miss, I think you have to check.

As for the river decision, I'd want to call but probably fold. It looks like a missed flush draw but as it's a bounty hunter, he could be looking for it all by shoving, it could just be a Q. Looking from his point of view, limp pre, min-bet flop, min-bet turn, check river, top pair is always going to be good, he could shove hoping you call with any other pair. If he's missed a flush draw, there's not a lot of hands you can call with that takes that line so a shove from him makes sense. It would be unfortunate for him if he did get caught with the missed flush draw or even 7-8 turned into a bluff, you have the only hand you take that line with that can call a river shove.

Angmar2626

I like the limp pre. Assuming we're limping weaker hands here a lot, having JK in our limping range helps with balance and stops BB being able to auto-raise.

Think it helps to have a general plan though (subject to change depending on villain's sizings) - are we limp/raising, limp/calling or limp/folding?

markycash

In Response to Re: Hand 2 UKOPS - JK in SB:

I like the limp pre. Assuming we're limping weaker hands here a lot, having JK in our limping range helps with balance and stops BB being able to auto-raise. Think it helps to have a general plan though (subject to change depending on villain's sizings) - are we limp/raising, limp/calling or limp/folding?
Posted by Angmar2626

Fully agree with this.

I am limping a very balanced range when I do this otherwise it would obviously be leaky. There was one hand in one of the later £110 UKOPS games where I was trying to limp my usual semi-wide but balanced range from the SB versus a strong reg in the BB. He was having none of it and shoving/raising almost every time. I then am dealt ATo and limp in fully expecting the shove for 20BBs @ 500-1000 level. As expected the shove comes with 34s and we hold to get the stack to be right back in the game.

I will usually have a general plan too although this can change as you say based upon sizing and whether we see the flop and the texture etc etc.

markycash

As for the hand in question.

I will paste it below but I am not sure if the suits are showing. I think he was off-suit and no flush draws landed.

With this type of hand I think the villains range is utterly polarised. I don't feel he is doing this with any middling hands, he either has stumbled onto some funky big hand (entirely possible) or has nothing IMO. The bet was just so big that it screamed 'go away' please do not call. If he has middling hands he may want a little bit of action.

A fair point was made questioning the line and especially the check on the river as it was almost inducing. Sure, if he acts we have a decision to make, but do we not maximum value from the hand? I had the feeling he had a very weak hand, probably one with no showdown value so if I lead he is probably folding. We also don't have a bad hand, relatively speaking in a HU pot. The check on the river was fully intended to induce a bet which I intended to snap call, I just wasn't expecting a 2xpot bet.

Anyways I just did not feel it added up, many draws had missed and I had notes questioning some of his plays so went with the call and opponent had the 24 and a missed gutshot. I don't make these calls often, I remember the last similar one I made in one of the Vegas mission freerolls where the villain shoved 200 BBs on the flop and we were good with top pair decent kicker and held. On both occasions I felt I had a semi-strong read.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
markycash	Small blind		250.00	250.00	7033.76
BB	Big blind		500.00	750.00	16967.00
	Your hole cards	·         J ·         K
Player1	Fold
Player2	Fold
Player3	Fold
markycash	Call		250.00	1000.00	6783.76
BB	Check
Flop
		·         6 ·         5 ·         Q
markycash	Bet		500.00	1500.00	6283.76
BB	Call		500.00	2000.00	16467.00
Turn
		·         J
markycash	Bet		500.00	2500.00	5783.76
BB	Call		500.00	3000.00	15967.00
River
		·         7
markycash	Check
BB	All-in		15967.00	18967.00	0.00
markycash	All-in		5783.76	24750.76	0.00
BB	Unmatched bet		10183.24	14567.52	10183.24
markycash	Show	·         J ·         K
BB	Show	·         2 ·         4
markycash	Win	Pair of Jacks	14567.52		14567.52