Some advice on Bet sizing and C bets please

fi33er

HI Guys,

I am trying to fix my game, and the more I look the more I see that I don't have a clue what I am doing!

I think bet sizing is very important, but i dont use it very much.

When I make a bet i use the boxes.

I am trying to improve my cbet range and also the timing of when to cbet.

Also if I cbet a flop that I have missed, Eg ak on q59 flop and they call what is a good way of determining when to fire again on the turn in regard to stack size and tournie phase? (ie near bubble, early doors or final table)

Thank you very much for any input, I have been reading some books but they dont answer my questions!

Good luck!

merlin

Lambert180

Here's a thing I wrote ages ago about bet sizing that you might find useful.

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a2e4f51cb-c64c-449f-a843-8db9c5fe7283Forum%3af6da0520-771e-4022-95ff-9cf89f27717fDiscussion%3a06d0ac99-a863-4beb-8068-dd458ac6da4f

fi33er

Wow, great post there Lambert, very informative for me thank you.

I understand bet sizzing to stop them having the corrct odds if they have a drawing hand in relation to pot odds, vs my made hand.

I understand how to work out the pot odds vs my drawing hand odds when they are betting and i am drawing.  

 

I struggle when I c bet a missed flop and they call.  If its early doors in a tourney i generally check fold and preserve stack size on the turn (unless my notes on them say otherewise)

When i run deep I think my attitude is all wrong,

I am finding that I do run deep in most tournies that i play now, getting down to the last table or 2 or so. 

When I get there I have a mid or low stack (although last 2 I have bubbled I have been 2nd in chips at start of final table)

This is where I  seem to mess up.

I watched chicken melt smash the final tabe of the £55 bh last night, he was applying pressure every hand and using his stack size so well.  I see that I am kind of the oppsite in that I am way to passive and that has to change if I want to stop bubbling everything and start winning.

Also I seem to have the uncaney knack for not calling pf with  hands like a6 off and a3  mid tourney then the flop is a69 or a37.  I don't call because I'm not garanteed to see the flop if I call or because I think I will be dominated by a bigger ace.

It might be that my decision was correct to fold pf, but it could be I don't play a wide enough range when I have doubled up mid stage and this is holding me back later in the tourney when I am shortish stacked.

I under stand the maths of the game (which is my strong side of the game) but i think I am make some basic errors in my play which are holding me back and stopping me improving.

I read books but I think poker lessons wouyld help me a lot, I recon someone would watch me play and be able to improve my game very easily in to a winning one.

I am a fish on sharkscope and I know a lot more than some of the players who beat me.

I have run bad for ages as well, so I read  the mind game of poker  which has helped me deal with that side of my game so much.

I do well in cash games making a small amount of money (up £85 this week so far and I've paid for all my vegas sats and 1 vegas quarter as well from 8 hours of play)

Thanks for your help I will re read that post on the link above again now, 

good luck today I'll be spinning it up between my 3 shows today, gig in the Rainbow casino in Bristol on Friday night

  

 

jimb0d1

halfpot and 3/4 buttons are fine in most spots up to the flop. 

later on in the tourny you can make bets smaller as everyone has shallow stacks.

If you want to play the poorer aces, then try playing them cheap (minraise) from button or bb.

Cbetting is very effective but think about what you are going to do if called BEFORE firing that halfpot bet.

fi33er

thanks Jimbod for your advice. I saw you did really well in the £55 bh last night. Thanks for taking the time to help me. Good luck today

Essexphil

It is always tricky knowing when to c-bet when missed the flop. 3 quick bits of advice:-

1. If more people are in to see the flop, c-bet less often
2. Look at the texture of the flop cards-what story are you trying to sell, what cards will improve your/others hands. and what cards will help sell a story
3. Vary the number of bullets you are prepared to fire. You must not be predictable-people who only ever fire 1 bullet are easy to bluff for example, but it is important to look at your opponents and what they are doing

Hope that helps-obviously I only ever bet when I hit

Angmar2626

I think the fact that you want to improve means that you're not a fish

Poker strategy is such a massive area that one lifetime isn't enough to learn everything, so I definitely think it helps to pick one format, ie cash, sng, mtt and focus just on that or you're spreading yourself too thinly. For me mtt is the most fun by far, but that's up to you!

If you do play mtts don't play another one until you've got a strong grasp of icm. Or do, and please play the same games as me But seriously if you don't get icm you're just playing a weird short-stacked cash game, plus learning that will answer a lot of your questions on bubbles, fts, aggression, etc.

Can talk through AK on Q59 example if you like?

As you've said, things are going to change drastically depending on what stage of the tournament it is/stack sizes/opponent/position/bounties(!) so for argument's sake maybe assume it's mid stage, both 40bb deep, unknown opponent, non-bounty hunter. You're ep and villain is btn. You open 2.5x (for argument's sake...) and villain flats. To start with, what do you think all the hands in his range are at this point? Then we can narrow his range on each street postflop

Spoiler: most of the hands that called pf aren't going to fold to your cbet

Edit: make it Q59 rainbow

fi33er

 Thanks guys, I dont even know what ICM means ANGMAR! Thats how bad I am!

So AK 2.5 riase pf I'm early position and I'm vs button.

flop is q59 rainbow

If he calls with high cards he could have gut shot or open ended straight, so 4 or 8 outs (8% or 16% to hit next card)

If he called with low pair he might call down our c bet but if he doesn't improve on the turn he  would prob fold to turn bet.

ace x hand would prob fold to our cbet.... 

If he has premium pair he would have reraised most of the time pf so unlikely..

I would bet 1/2 pot, I have 6 outs to prob. the best hand, and a possible back door straight if a 10 or j drop on the turn which would leave me with 4 outs to nuts on river. 

If they call I would see what the turn brought and either bet on turn, or check/fold (if a scary card came off) or  check call depending on card....

Thanks for your time and help mate I appreciate it just trying to qualify for the vegas stuff now.....

Angmar2626

In Response to Re: Some advice on Bet sizing and C bets please:

 Thanks guys, I dont even know what ICM means ANGMAR! Thats how bad I am! So AK 2.5 riase pf I'm early position and I'm vs button. flop is q59 rainbow If he calls with high cards he could have gut shot or open ended straight, so 4 or 8 outs (8% or 16% to hit next card) If he called with low pair he might call down our c bet but if he doesn't improve on the turn he  would prob fold to turn bet. ace x hand would prob fold to our cbet....  If he has premium pair he would have reraised most of the time pf so unlikely.. I would bet 1/2 pot, I have 6 outs to prob. the best hand, and a possible back door straight if a 10 or j drop on the turn which would leave me with 4 outs to nuts on river.  If they call I would see what the turn brought and either bet on turn, or check/fold (if a scary card came off) or  check call depending on card.... Thanks for your time and help mate I appreciate it just trying to qualify for the vegas stuff now.....
Posted by fi33er

Hi mate apologies been without wifi for past week.

So with ICM, there's a lot of theory and calculations but in a nutshell, when you win a tournament you don't win the entire prizepool, you win a share of it. So if you think about it, when playing mtts it's impossible to win 100% of the money but it's possible to win 0% of the money (when you bust) therefore the chips you lose are worth more than the chips you gain, and the value of your chips changes over the course of the tournament. When you get a double up you don't really double your expected gain. And your tournament life is important.

People incorrectly misinterpret it a lot as having to play too tight, whereas the other side of the coin you should be looking at is how you can abuse icm and put people in some really tough spots, forcing THEM to play too tight. The obvious places are on the bubbles and final table, but there are millions of different scenarios with varying amounts of icm pressure.

So as an extreme example:

Final table, 5 players left, 3 people have 5bb, SB has 100bb (lol) and BB has 30bb.

Folds round to SB, and SB shoves all in. What range should BB call with? Should be absolutely joke tight. AK is a clear fold imo. With 3 people on such short stacks, calling and losing here, finishing in 5th would be absolutely disastorous. You're going to make it to HU so so often from here and move up the payjumps to play for a chance at 1st place. If you call and win, you're still 2nd in chips so the risk is wayyyyyyyy greater than the reward. If it was winner takes all, would be completely different situation but with the varying payouts in mtts, icm puts BB under a ton of pressure here.

Therefore...

What range can SB profitably shove into the BB? If we know BB is a competent thinking player, then we can shove absolutely any 2 cards here. 23o is a profitable shove because BB has to fold just so so much.

Even 23o is going to have ok equity against AK. So when people call and lose, and then complain about:

A) Sky poker is rigged

Big stack always wins

C) Matt Bates is so lucky

really they shouldn't have been calling in the first place.

Hope some of that is useful, just a way of thinking about things to try and avoid making mistakes, and forcing others to make mistakes, gl!

P.s. I would imagine someone like Matt Bates knows EXACTLY what they're doing with these kinds of spots, and that's why always 'seems' to manage to get it in with the worst hand and win. Or maybe he's just clicking buttons, who knows :P

fi33er

Very interesting and thought provoking thank you! I was just chatting about indedpendant chip models and learning about them earlier.

I keep getting deep in tournies and then blowing it, I lost 6 tournies in a row since sunday with best hand.

I am learning a lot now though so I do think I am improving.

I will keep on going and hopefully I will start to see some wins in some tournies. I have a long way to go I know.  I am going in the right direction now so thats good.

Thanks for your help I appreciate it a lot,

good luck,

merlin