Moral Dilemma

tomgoodun

My mother in law passed away recently

She had a jar which she placed her odd bits of change in, 20p's, 50p's etc etc.

When we collected her belongings from the care home, we emptied her purse change into the pot.

On the day of the funeral I dropped my good lady at her mums house where she would be picked up by the limo which travels behind the hearse, we noticed the pot was empty.

We now know who took it.

My question is - Would you class this as theft?

Does it depend how much was in the pot to class this as theft?

jimb0d1

More information required, perhaps it was used by a family member to cover some short term expense e.g. window cleaner called and caught short/had to take a quick taxi or bus. 

I dont think it depends how much was in the pot - more like would your MIL have approved of the use of this money?

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

More information required, perhaps it was used by a family member to cover some short term expense e.g. window cleaner called and caught short/had to take a quick taxi or bus.  I dont think it depends how much was in the pot - more like would your MIL have approved of the use of this money?
Posted by jimb0d1

It wasn't used to pay a bill, my good lady is dealing with that side of things.

It was shared between 2 people.

MIL would 100% disapprove.

mumsie

+1 jimbo.

It depends on many things Tom, you saying its a dilemma , suggests there may be mitigation  or there may not be. If i were flouncie natured , I would be livid, but theft ? More info is needed.

(posted without seeing Toms reply)

stokefc

bit of an awkward situation Tom

if its just a few quid let them keep it so long as they,ve taken nowt else but let them know that you know and your very unhappy about it , if its a few hundred (you can get quite abit in large jars or bottles) tell them you want it back and threaten them with the police its still theft even if its close family even if deep down you would,nt get the police involved

its sad that things like this happen when a close one passes all some people see is £ signs

gl Tom

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

+1 jimbo. It depends on many things Tom, you saying its a dilemma , suggests there may be mitigation  or there may not be. If i were flouncie natured , I would be livid, but theft ? More info is needed. (posted without seeing Toms reply)
Posted by mumsie

Hi Charlie

My dilemma is whether I should get involved, I think I know the answer deep down, I should keep my mouth shut and support my wife at this very emotional time.

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

bit of an awkward situation Tom if its just a few quid let them keep it so long as they,ve taken nowt else but let them know that you know and your very unhappy about it , if its a few hundred (you can get quite abit in large jars or bottles) tell them you want it back and threaten them with the police its still theft even if its close family even if deep down you would,nt get the police involved its sad that things like this happen when a close one passes all some people see is £ signs gl Tom
Posted by stokefc

Hi Sean, as above I think I should keep schtum, I just wanted opinions on theft or not, I'm 100% sure it is.

As you have alluded to, this isn't the first thing they have taken., it's opened my eyes to people's morality.

Essexphil

Theft is taking something that you know belongs to someone else, with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of it. That sounds like theft-amount is only relevant to police's approach.

Should be your wife's choice-it is her relative. I would worry that escalating the theft will provide a negative memory for your wife in years to come-that is why I favour ignoring it...

hhyftrftdr

Not sure the amount really matters, but I'm guessing the amount is essentially irrelevant in this situation.

People do weird things in grief, but if they have previous then it's gonna be hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

Theft is taking something that you know belongs to someone else, with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of it. That sounds like theft-amount is only relevant to police's approach. Should be your wife's choice-it is her relative. I would worry that escalating the theft will provide a negative memory for your wife in years to come-that is why I favour ignoring it...
Posted by Essexphil

Thanks Phil, I will try to ignore it.

It's really difficult when they are busy stripping the garage and house though.., and asking where the jewellery is .

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

Not sure the amount really matters, but I'm guessing the amount is essentially irrelevant in this situation. People do weird things in grief, but if they have previous then it's gonna be hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Hi Jon

Grief isn't part of their make up I'm sad to say.

My eyes have been well and truly opened to some folks.

Essexphil

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma : Thanks Phil, I will try to ignore it. It's really difficult when they are busy stripping the garage and house though.., and asking where the jewellery is .
Posted by tomgoodun

Important to bear in mind that the rightful owner is the estate/the beneficiaries. Did your mother-in-law leave a will? If yes, can just notify the executors. If no will, then COULD apply to the Court for Letters of Administration to run the estate, but this is only worthwhile if she left a tidy sum or there is a house to sell....think that's right, but some years since I did Probate.

Phil-Hazy Lawyer

MattBates

Amount involved is irrelevant for me. It depends on the rationale as to whether its theft. (FWIW, from what you have said it sounds like it is theft).

What is important here is the wishes of MIL and your wife and the latter is the more important from your perspective. The only important thing here is you helping your wife get through a difficult time so I would tend to pass the info on to the executors assuming your wife doesnt care about it. 

What I would add is, in my experience death makes others do strange things and people cope in different ways however there are some nasty people out there.  

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma : Important to bear in mind that the rightful owner is the estate/the beneficiaries. Did your mother-in-law leave a will? If yes, can just notify the executors. If no will, then COULD apply to the Court for Letters of Administration to run the estate, but this is only worthwhile if she left a tidy sum or there is a house to sell....think that's right, but some years since I did Probate. Phil-Hazy Lawyer
Posted by Essexphil

There is a will, also a house to sell.

MIL told my wife she had " sorted" the details of Administation through a company who told her they would deal with everything, she paid a tidy sum to them, we found out too late all they provide is an online tool help. All 4 children are Executors.....

Tom - Disgusted Son in law

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

Amount involved is irrelevant for me. It depends on the rationale as to whether its theft. (FWIW, from what you have said it sounds like it is theft). What is important here is the wishes of MIL and your wife and the latter is the more important from your perspective. The only important thing here is you helping your wife get through a difficult time so I would tend to pass the info on to the executors assuming your wife doesnt care about it.  What I would add is, in my experience death makes others do strange things and people cope in different ways however there are some nasty people out there.  
Posted by MattBates

Hi Matt

As above my mil's wishes were that the children wouldn't need to deal with the house sale or any items within it as she knew what would happen, she was conned into believing a company who came to hers on the pretext of doing her will and expanded their services to " help".

Tikay10

Ugh, what a horrible spot, Tom.

I'm with the "say nothing but look after your wife" crew.

Karma will deal with the other matter.  

markycash

Sorry to hear all this Tom!

It is hard to say what I would do in your spot as it would depend a lot on the exact specifics of the situation. People can be an awful let down sometimes.

Hope you and your wife are holding up as best as is possible.

Enut

It's theft pure and simple. I'm mostly in agreement with those that say do whatever your wife wants to do however what about challenging those that you know took the money (you must be 100%)? Maybe try 'I know you took the cash from the penny jar, I presume this was to change it into notes to save us the hassle in this difficult time, can you let me know how much was in there and when we can expect the notes?'

As someone who saw his father's entire estate pass to people who aren't even blood relatives nothing surprises me when money is involved. People show their true colours.

tomgoodun

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

It's theft pure and simple. I'm mostly in agreement with those that say do whatever your wife wants to do however what about challenging those that you know took the money (you must be 100%)? Maybe try 'I know you took the cash from the penny jar, I presume this was to change it into notes to save us the hassle in this difficult time, can you let me know how much was in there and when we can expect the notes?' As someone who saw his father's entire estate pass to people who aren't even blood relatives nothing surprises me when money is involved. People show their true colours.
Posted by Enut

Hi Paul

My good lady asked them why they took it, their answer " There was only a few quid, I gave it to the girls - grandchildren) then passed us a list of what furniture they were taking for their son's new abode, then asked about the equity release documents, how much is owed, how much the house is worth etc etc .....

One rang my good lady tonight saying he will bring the receipt for the wake food along tomorrow as he's a bit short ( not in a hhry way) nice to know they have their priorities right whilst we visit our daughter in hospital..

Enut

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma:

In Response to Re: Moral Dilemma : Hi Paul My good lady asked them why they took it, their answer " There was only a few quid, I gave it to the girls - grandchildren) then passed us a list of what furniture they were taking for their son's new abode, then asked about the equity release documents, how much is owed, how much the house is worth etc etc ..... One rang my good lady tonight saying he will bring the receipt for the wake food along tomorrow as he's a bit short ( not in a hhry way) nice to know they have their priorities right whilst we visit our daughter in hospital..
Posted by tomgoodun

Hi Tom
What does your mother in law's will say, assuming she left one? If they are entitled to a share of her estate then calculate the value of what they have taken and ask the executors to take that into account when settling the estate (i.e take the value off their share). If they weren't then I assume the executors can ask for the value to be paid back.

I hope your daughter is ok, this sort of c r ap is the last thing you need atm. I think in your situation I would have snapped long ago and read them the riot act.

HAYSIE

My best advice would be to clearly point out that this was wrong and move on.
The only point in establishing whether or not this is theft, is that you intend to report the matter to the police.
I am not sure the police would wish to get involved.
If you did this it would definitely cause a rift in the family. One half would no longer be speaking to the other half.
That is far too big a price to pay.
If there was £40 in the jar, two members of the family would have robbed the other two, of £10 each.
Life is too short to let this matter.