DYM hands

stretch83

Hi all,

Trying to learn DYM's and I think these may just be coolers but would love to know if I should have avoided some of these spots.

Hand 1. Background, Villain had just lost a hand prior to this hand for half of his stack.  When he shoved I thought I had a great hand to call with as it felt a bit tilty also 10's.  What do you guys think?

2.20 DYM

Villain Small blind 50.0050.001325.00stretch83Big blind 100.00150.002375.00 Your hole cards1010   xxxxFold    xxxxCall 100.00250.004966.67xxxxxFold    VillainAll-in 1325.001575.000.00stretch83Call 1275.002850.001100.00xxxxFold    VillainShowAK   stretch83Show1010   Flop  9K7   Turn  8   River  K   VillainWinThree Kings2850.00 2850.00

Hand 2 - Feels like just a major cooler but it is niggling in my mind that it is never really acceptable to bust early on in a STT.  

xxxxSmall blind 10.0010.001970.00stretch83Big blind 20.0030.001980.00 Your hole cardsK7   VillainRaise 60.0090.001940.00xxxxFold    xxxxFold    xxxxFold    xxxxFold    stretch83Call 40.00130.001940.00Flop  K52   stretch83Check    VillainBet 80.00210.001860.00stretch83Raise 370.00580.001570.00VillainCall 290.00870.001570.00Turn  6   stretch83Check    VillainCheck    River  Q   stretch83Bet 220.001090.001350.00VillainRaise 600.001690.00970.00stretch83All-in 1350.003040.000.00VillainAll-in 970.004010.000.00stretch83ShowK7   VillainShowJA   VillainWinFlush to the Ace4010.00 4010.00

mumsie

Hand 2 : Fold Pre.

chiggypig

First hand definitely fine.

2nd hand, I'm not folding K7s pre for 3 blinds first level, I'd flat the river when he raises to 600 though, would leave yourself with 1k chips when you lose which is far from a disaster

stretch83

Thank you both for your replies. Although I can see both options I err on the side of playing the hand. A lot of the time  I'm good there so a good way to chip up and give myself some breathing room.  However it was foolish reraisninf all in and can see that now.

Thanks for your help

MattBates

In Response to hand 2:

Hand 2 : Fold Pre.
Posted by mumsie

Be interested to get views from a few more people on this. I rarely play DYMs so maybe I am wrong but folding seems overly tight. 

With the river I dont know what we are expecting to get called by that we beat so we should flat the raise. 

EvilPingu

Hand 1 I am fine with a call.

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Hand 2 I'd just fold pre in a DYM, particularly vs UTG as his range will be tighter, thus stronger. Think Matt is right to question the post that just says "Fold pre" though, as a call is ok in other games if your post flop ability permits. BB vs UTG 3x in a DYM I'm probs closer to KTs+ as far as defending is concerned.

Would defend K7s in some MTTs and cash though, particularly vs weaker opponents that I want to play pots against.

As played, personally I wouldn't check/raise the flop. When we x/r the flop, we lose the showdown value of our top pair as we struggle to get called by worse after we x/r. I'd rather x/c to let him fire off when the board runs out dry where he can potentially barrel the turn and river with a hand like a nut flush draw, or if he feels he can bet JJ/QQ on the turn for value and protection, that kind of thing.

When we x/r K7s on the flop, we probably make him fold a lot of stuff that might continue on later streets that we beat, and we're only worried about three non-spade Aces in the pack in terms of things that give us a tricky decision if he continues a bluff. I think we get more value by just x/c. We limit our losses somewhat in the situations where he just has a better King that way as well.

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Turn as played: If we're going to x/r the flop, I would continue on the turn to set up an easy river sizing to jam. Problem is that he's going to check back that turn a lot of the time when he just has a King, therefore we end up with 870 in the pot and we have to get 1570 in the middle on the river somehow. Just stick 450 in on the turn to make it an easy river jam IMO, gives us 1120 into a pot of 1770 to set him in otr. Betting turn makes it really easy for him to just jam all flushes as well, as we continue repping sets and AsKx, and we can snap him off.

He can call the turn with so much stuff that he shouldn't be calling with as well, and if the river is a brick (9 of diamonds for instance), then players at this level will find it difficult to fold Aces and AK, never mind folding 2pr+, irrespective of us taking a strong line.

Problem is by checking, you force yourself to have to do things like taking this weird b/3b river line that just sets off alarm bells and might allow them to fold something that they shouldn't otherwise be folding.

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River as played: I think we do have to go with it for two reasons.

1) People in these level games can overvalue 2pr and sets because they're just looking at their own hand, and can certainly get to the river with worse flushes and stack off. There are regulars who I would bet/call this river against in DYMs, and even a couple where I'd strongly consider a bet/fold although I'm probs not good enough to make it. But I think in a £2.20 DYM against a random, you've just gotta go with this one.

2) We've bet a quarter of the pot after x/r the flop and checking a wet turn card. Our river sizing is kinda blockery and also thin value. We're repping fives or deuces pretty strongly I reckon, possibly KQ that x/r flop and made 2pr, not a flush. As a result of our bet size, I don't think he needs to be as strong in order for him to raise, and I think he may read it as weak and just overvaluing a set or KQ ourselves if we jam, so I think we do (just about) have to stick the rest of our chips in. There's also a good chance he's not opening every suited ace combo UTG, like he might just open fold A3/A4s pre, which takes away some of the ways he can have a nut flush.

I get the argument for flatting as played, and it's close - I'd probably flat a Queen high flush at this level and jam a King high one, given population tendencies and stuff.

FeelGroggy

Hand 1 I call even without notes, fact he lost half his stack makes it even more of a call.

Hand 2 vs a utg 3x open I can't imagine calling or folding K7s is going to be too bad or too good either way.

On the flop I don't like the decision to raise. Given he raised under the gun, if he has a king, it will have a better kicker than yours. Raising here only serves to fold out some of his weaker value hands, hands like JJ, which is practically drawing dead against us, as well as taking away his ability to bluff. If we had K7dd here, we would be calling every time. K7ss is clearly much better as it has a lot more equity, but it is still top pair weak kicker in a spot where we are either miles ahead or a bit behind equity wise. Raising can never be bad as such, we always have good equity but I think calling makes more chips. As its a DYM we should also be inclined to play a lower variance approach, as we only need to beat half the field to make money, calling flop makes even more sense in this format.

On the turn as played I would just bet and look to jam the river for value. He has bet the flop and called a big raise so he should be pretty strong. He can't realistically have any bluffs so checking to induce bluffs doesn't make sense, unless your checking to go for a river value bet against a hand like KJ/ KQ, which you think you can't stack.

On the river as played I think we should be betting bigger. I would look to go something more like 2/3rds pot than 1/4. When we choose such a small size I don't think it would be too unreasonable for him to raise small for value with some 2pair/ set type hands, worse flushes and I would be 3 bet jamming for value. The fact he has the ace high flush is just unlucky. I may play the hand differently, but I would also be going broke. I would say try and think what your bets and raises are trying to achieve when you make them. Would be Interested in other people's thoughts as well.

swanstu

Cooler city simple as that for hand 2 - never folding to a small raise, and each street makes it look like you're running golden after that (when of course he has the only other hand). If you didn't smash into that kind of hand which one's would you in any poker game...? I hate losing K flush vs A flush, but anyone would be surely way too weak if they didn't try to double up with a K flush non-paired board?

chiggypig

I'd love to see some maths about the river of hand 2.

So, when calling with the better hand you will have 3k chips, but still have 1k chips when they do have the nut flush.

When shoving when you have the best hand you have either 4k or 3k chips, and 0k chips when they have the nuts.

I wonder how wide of a range the opponent has to be raising the river with to make the utility of an extra possible 1k chips outweigh the instant loss of occasionally losing all your chips (remembering that an extra 1k chips is much less important then surviving with 1k chips, especially in a DYM)

swanstu

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

I'd love to see some maths about the river of hand 2. So, when calling with the better hand you will have 3k chips, but still have 1k chips when they do have the nut flush. When shoving when you have the best hand you have either 4k or 3k chips, and 0k chips when they have the nuts. I wonder how wide of a range the opponent has to be raising the river with to make the utility of an extra possible 1k chips outweigh the instant loss of occasionally losing all your chips (remembering that an extra 1 chips is much less important then surviving with 1k chips, especially in a DYM)
Posted by chiggypig

Fair point, so it's also a question of how often this is likely they are holding the ace flush against you (the only hand beating you). I don't like DYMs must admit, and you're right to suggest that winning the extra wouldn't always guarantee anything in these formats. I guess my answer may have been more biased towards the standard 6-max type games rather than purely DYMs. However, gaining that amount would still put you in a strong position, even for a DYM so very significant still.

jdsallstar

Hand one, in a £2.20 dym it's a call all day for me unless I know the villain really well. Still have 11 bigs left even if you lose which still gives you a good chance at these levels if you know what you're doing.

Hand 2, if it's a dym I probably fold pre more often than not here. As played though I definitely barrel the turn you'll get a ton of value from people at these levels calling with stuff they shouldnt. I think I flat his river raise as well. If you flat it's a 2k pot putting your stack around the 3k if you win (which is normally enough to get you over the line at this level 8times outa 10) and if you lose you still have around 1k stack at level one which still gives you a good chance to cash if you play it right.

chiggypig

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

In Response to Re: DYM hands : Fair point, so it's also a question of how often this is likely they are holding the ace flush against you (the only hand beating you). I don't like DYMs must admit, and you're right to suggest that winning the extra wouldn't always guarantee anything in these formats. I guess my answer may have been more biased towards the standard 6-max type games rather than purely DYMs. However, gaining that amount would still put you in a strong position, even for a DYM so very significant still.
Posted by swanstu

I'm not a massive dym player myself, so maybe i'm thinking too tight in this situation, would love to here from Timmy or another DYM grinder's thoughts on this hand

Jac35

Really good answers 

With the 10s hand I'm thinking it could be closer than some have said.

I would really be looking at my opponents. If I feel I have a big edge in the game then I think it could well be a fold. We don't need to take a relatively high variance approach 

If it's a dym v very good regs then I think I call mostly. 

Far less of an edge and a good spot to take 

stretch83

Thank you everyone for your great replies, I really appreciate it and there are some fantastic answers that have given me a lot to take away and think about.


@ EvilPingu - Thanks for the detailed response and analysis of the way I played the hand.  Loads for me to take away there

@ FeelGroggy - Thanks also for your detailed reply, I need to give more thought to others actions and look past my own hand so will be looking into this from now.

@Chiggypig - You are absolutely right if I had just called I would still have 1000 chips and I have won DYMs with a lot less chips than that before that early on and also find if I can get to 3000-3500 I can easily keep myself out of trouble and steal blinds etc.  I am not sure why I had not thought like this before so thanks for pointing that out.

stretch83

Thanks also Jac35 - and JDAlLstar appreciate your time and your responses.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

Really good answers  With the 10s hand I'm thinking it could be closer than some have said. I would really be looking at my opponents. If I feel I have a big edge in the game then I think it could well be a fold. We don't need to take a relatively high variance approach  If it's a dym v very good regs then I think I call mostly.  Far less of an edge and a good spot to take 
Posted by Jac35

Have to say, that would be my exact view, too.  

MattBates

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

In Response to Re: DYM hands : Have to say, that would be my exact view, too.   
Posted by Tikay10

Interesting, so Tikay thinks he would fold. 

HENDRIK62

Good thread this,  a few differing views and reasoning behind those lines, makes for a learning opportunity.

Nice one.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

In Response to Re: DYM hands : Interesting, so Tikay thinks he would fold. 
Posted by MattBates

Shush you.

You should have railed me at SPT Manchester, I was all action, played hand after hand for the first 2 hours. To be fair, I never played any hands after that.
 
I even 5 bet twice. oioi.  

bearlyther

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

Really good answers  With the 10s hand I'm thinking it could be closer than some have said. I would really be looking at my opponents. If I feel I have a big edge in the game then I think it could well be a fold. We don't need to take a relatively high variance approach  If it's a dym v very good regs then I think I call mostly.  Far less of an edge and a good spot to take 
Posted by Jac35

Folding would be very bad its not as if were on the bubble with 4 players left. Theres 6 players left in and weve lost almost half our stack.  I think your overestimating your edge if you think you can fold here.

Jac35

In Response to Re: DYM hands:

In Response to Re: DYM hands : Folding would be very bad its not as if were on the bubble with 4 players left. Theres 6 players left in and weve lost almost half our stack.  I think your overestimating your edge if you think you can fold here.
Posted by bearlyther

As you say, I'm overestimating my edge 

Thank you for putting me right Conor

P.S

Would be helpful if you read the hand properly