Poker Staking

ScotsLion

Just wanted to know if anyone has had any experience with Poker Staking websites? And if so how it went for you?

Im interested in looking into this in more detail and getting staked myself.

scotty77

It's an interesting topic and there are a few things to consider.

If you are short of a BR then it allows you to play some bigger games and even tho you are chopping the profit, your hourly should increase as you will be playing higher and also getting coaching too so your ROI will be moving in the right direction too.

If you apply to a stable then you will have a few extra responsibilities

To do a certain amount of studying per week or group coaching

Play a minimum number of games per month - usually n the hundreds

Stick strickly to their buy in rules

To maintain your account in a completely transparent fashion - no random cash spin ups/sports bets

Now I personally think they are all big positives for any poker player - in discipline and also making you work on your game/be honest with hands. But of course there are plenty of horror stories out there too.

It is not something that I would consider lightly - if you can't commit the time to it then don't start with a stable.  Also remember that there will be times when you are deep in makeup, have a nice score and not see a penny.

Typically the stables will only roll you for the big sites that are tracked - I know some staking goes on Sky but I think they are more of a 'mates' type deal.  Remember that those types of tournies will be bigger fields, take longer and have more variance.

I do know that Sky Poker TV guest/player Jamie Burland runs a stable that focuses on smaller sites, so maybe find him on twitter.  All the big stables are active on the well known poker forum.

I don't know of your aspirations for poker but if its a bit of fun, with a chance of making some extra cash, then stick to playing on your own.  If you want to give it a shot at something more serious, then by all means make some enquiries. 

But as I said, the amount of time that you can dedicate to poker should be your main consideration.

Good luck.

Tikay10

In Response to Poker Staking:

Just wanted to know if anyone has had any experience with Poker Staking websites? And if so how it went for you? Im interested in looking into this in more detail and getting staked myself.
Posted by ScotsLion

Morning Scotslion.

I pretty much agree with much of what Scotty wrote, but I want to spend a little time trying to explain a few things to help you make a better decision.
 
It may seem like I am hostile to the idea - and in a way, I suppose I am - but only because I want to help you make the right decision NOW, before you go too far down the road on this.
 
First up, what formats & stakes do you play? Do you play cash poker? I ask because, like everyone else, I can see from Sharky what sort of MTT's you play, & at what stakes. 

30 of your last 35 MTT's have been £1, £1.50 & £2.50 Satellites. Are these "sats for cash" or do you play them to get into Target Events? How do you get on in those Target Events?

On the basis of what we can see on Sharky, not many Staking Outfits would be interested in that, but of course Sharky may only be showing us half the picture.
 
You do seem to be profitable at present - that's a plus, as no Staking team will take you on unless you are profitable, & can prove so. 

Another issue is that Staking Businesses usually want to be able to track your play, & see your detailed stats from HEM or HUD's, & of course that's not do-able here on Sky Poker. 

More follows.....   

Tikay10

I'm assuming you realise that in return for being staked - which does have some advantages - you are going to have to give back half (or whatever) of whatever profits you make.

And staked players are ALWAYS in make-up - that is to say, you ALWAYS owe the Staker money. Always. It's one thing losing our own money, but when we are playing with other people's money, it don't half ratchet up the pressure.
 
As a Pro player, I get all that, but as a recreational - which you & I are - I'm not sure that's a good thing.
 
More follows.....


 

Itsover4u

Fwiw I'm seriouly considering staking for other sites but it is almost definitely long term -eve as a winning player. BUT ... if it fits around your lifestyle then it can be a big positive.

If you are a marginal winning player and you can find a stable that can offer coaching then I would say go for it as you roi should increase also

Tikay10

This one is very important, or at least, it is if you want to be Staked whilst playing on Sky Poker.

Many staking companies don't just send you a cheque or do you a Bank Transfer - they insist on direct access to your poker account, then they deposit the agreed funds into your account, & then "sweep" the account once every 24 hours, withdrawing any profits &/or depositing back up to the agreed staking levels.
 
Sky Poker will never, under any circumstances, allow this.
 
You, & you alone, have to retain exclusive rights to depositing & withdrawing to your account. Just need you to know that before you go any further.
 
Sky Poker have been approached by most of the UK facing Staking Businesses, & have had to say "sorry, no can do" when they requested access to players accounts in return for staking our players. There are a zillion regulatory & Compliance headaches right there, & Sky Poker, indeed all of SB&G, are squeaky clean on these things.

Several staking teams offered Sky Poker dozens of new players, but insisted on having access to their accounts. It would be great to say "yay, welcome aboard", but it just can't be done.   

Tikay10

So, until you fill in the gaps (do you play cash, what stakes, is the plan to play MTT's, if so, at what stakes etc?), my advice would be don't go down the Staking Business route. 

As Scotty mentioned, numerous players on Sky Poker ARE staked, but they are staked by mates, informally. Based on what we know so far, I'd strongly suggest that is a better route for you. Ask a mate to stake you, cut him in for some profit, & see how that goes.
 
I guess I should add that I'm not a young man - I'm over 45 - so by definition, I tend to be cautious & conservative with "gambling money", especially as I have seen so many of these things end badly. Younger folks tend to be more adventurous, & I get that completely.
 
Anyway, come back to us with the other details (if you want to), & whatever you do, I wish you the very best of luck.  

Above all else, at our level, please remember its about enjoying the game, more than the sort of profits we can make at the levels we play. We are recreationals, & always will be (well 99% of us are), so the most important component is enjoyment. You seem to be doing OK so far, nice bit of profit, & still loving the game. Mess with that at your own peril.
 
GL, GL.    

TheMadMonk

most of what tikay and scotty say is right on the ball.

i was staked for a while abiout 10 odd years ago by a company for me it took a lot of fun out of playing poker,having to play on the site of their choosing, when normally i like to have a look at all the sites and choose the games i fancy.

and as the guys say,playing with other players money brings on massive pressure ,at one time i was up thousands,and kept thinking i should be doing this on my own instead of giving away half the profits which took some of the fun out of winning away.

then i was down thousands [which doesnt take long,believe me] and i hated the fact i was letting down the company/guys who had put their faith in me.

finally i won a couple of games and got back into profit,and we agreed to end the contract,

on the plus side i got coaching and learned a lot.

you post on the sky forum so i guess you play on sky also,most staking sites will want you to play as many hours as possible

for them,and its kind of frowned apon if you play on other sites with your own money at the same time.

not sure what £ level of buy/in you play at,but if its micro stakes ie under £10 buy ins,i would recomend you play with your own cash and try to build a bankroll,as for coaching you can learn lots from twitch etc,and theres also plenty of good players on this forum,who i am sure if you asked,would answer any question you had abouy hands etc,and maybe even watch you play via teamviewer or whatever and give you some advice on your game.

good luck whatever you decide on.

Tikay10

^^^^^

That's a great post.

Being x thou ahead & knowing you have to give 50% (or whatever) back, or being x thou down & knowing you have to win that back twice to get even must be the worst of all worlds.  

glencoelad

Great advice from all above, and shows the quality of info available on this forum....sometimes.

   I have staked a couple of players for some local events , and often swap a % with players in 

  live events, i think keeping it amoungst friends is best .  Good luck if you go for it, but read over all the above a few times before making 

 the leap !

ScotsLion

Thanks Ryan and Tony.  That was some great advice.  

I am seeing a lot more advertising by companies offering staking.  However, the deals on offer may be complex and may come with strings/caveats attached as you mentioned Tony. 

I do play on a few sites, and do consider myself a winning player, so as you mentioned if anything would be appropriate it would probably be an informal agreement with another poker player/friend.

I am trying to ramp up the hours i dedicate to Poker (both studying & playing), my favourite games are MTT, but having said that i do also like cash & SNG.

The most recent games you mentioned tikay were just purely all in sats.  I did manage to Cash in 3rd spot On a target tournament; the £55 sheriff a few days ago.

I am pretty much an online poker player, so going to try and play more live events, and try and get some more poker pals lol....

EvilPingu

+1 to Scotty and Madmonk.

Was once staked for MTTs on 3 other sites. Got to around $13k MU or so at the worst point from memory. Really is hard to motivate yourself to grind and play your A-game when you look at the Big 55 lobby, for instance, and even winning one of the biggest nightly tournaments in online Poker probably won't net you a penny after MU.

Really depends what you're in it for. I'd only recommend it for MTTs where you're getting a **** good coach at the same time. Things to consider are:

- What can I play staked vs unstaked? Remember you need to double your EV to make the same amount once you give half away, so you need to make that from the extra tournaments you'll be able to play due to the stake. If you're already rolled to play the Big 55 every night, winning and you can handle the variance then obviously there's no use being staked, you'd be better off hiring a coach at an hourly rate. OTOH, if you're playing $5 SNGs and your backer only wants you to play the stakes you're already playing, then it's probably not worth it as you're giving half your profits away for very little.

- As a general rule, I'd only take a staking deal that offers coaching, unless I was busto and really desperate. Reason being is you won't be able to just jump into games with 5x the BI, now that you're "rolled" for higher stakes by the backer, and crush the games. You'll need some kind of coaching to improve to the point where your hourly improves beyond what it was before in most cases - unless your plan is to use the coaching to improve for a few months, then get back to zero MU and quit the stake. 

And frankly, not all the coaches in the Poker world are that good, plenty of them are stealing a living. I've seen some cases of people who mug people off, claiming to 'coach' the game who are barely capable of beating 20nl unless they're sitting on tables that have virtually no regs on them, while pocketing £30/hour from whoever is dumb enough to pay them to teach them to play ABC and bumhunt. I can think of several who I could advise better than, simply by providing my thought process on a hand posted in the Poker Clinic on here for free.

In relation to staking, these same coaches pop up on time to time, generally on these sites that are spammed with affiliate rakeback deals because these parasites have gotta steal every penny they possibly can off the Poker industry and its players. If you find yourself on one of these sites that is offering staking to the masses, be VERY careful. Find out who you're being coached by - They might have a single decent name in their coaching ranks, but he has a limited amount of hours in a day, and he's probs gonna be wanting to play the game himself a lot of the time too. 

Make sure you don't end up with coaching from some clown who can only barely beat 20nl by bumhunting, seat hopping to the left of the weakest player, buttoning people who try to start games, and other such tactics. They'll only be capable of telling you how to game select, so you learn absolutely nothing but you're giving away half your profits. Happens in SNG staking too, they'll probs just tell you "Get X piece of software and only play games with less than Y regs" or whatever, and they'll just point you to a push/fold chart or tell you to sign up to *insert paid coaching site here where they probably have an affiliate kickback if you go through their link*. Oh, and they've probs convinced you to sign up to site X through their affiliate link in order to be staked *cough*literallyeveryipokerskinever*cough* so they're pocketing like 5-10% of whatever you pay in rake on top of that FOREVER depending on the site.

(Okay, that went off on a bit of a tangent, but the point is if you're being staked, GET A GOOD COACH, not a parasite. Regardless of whether you're more interested in improving your Poker ability or your bottom line, a good coach is necessary. Certainly what makes or breaks a staking deal for me more than anything else)

- Oh, you can't leave a stake when you're in MU, and you'll often have contracts setting out terms such as this, your BI restrictions, and such. Leaving in MU or breaching those terms is a good way to get your name smeared over all the big Poker forums and for everyone in the Poker world to think you're a total d**k. I don't know how many of the contracts between backer and horse would actually stand up in court vs a decent lawyer if taken further, I'd be really curious to see what would happen.

- Not only that, but your backer will almost certainly mandate tracking software for multiple reasons - Not least as an added layer of security to make sure you're not stealing their money, but also so you can send them a tournament HH from a database for them to review and help with coaching if they're a decent coach that you're working with 1:1 - so you are having to double your profits playing on sites that are in USD rather than GBP, with a tougher player pool (see below).

- The sites that allow tracking software also have the toughest games, because they're all global sites. You've got solid Ukrainian regs even at fairly low stakes because they can make a living due to ridic low living costs in that part of the world. Obv plenty of other countries like that too, e.g. Russia, Romania, Belarus (Loads of Eastern European countries), Brazil, Mexico, think I've seen some people from India, Sri Lanka, even the Philippines I think. Low GDP country = Micro stakes grinders playing for a living. Maybe more true of cash but definitely applies to SNGs too, maybe not so much MTTs.

Obviously that means if 10nl, or $3.50 SNGs are full of solid regs, then the next level up is going to be even more reggy, and even tougher opposition.

- If staking is about getting a decent coach and improving, consider hiring a GOOD COACH for an hourly rate, and/or getting a RIO/DC subscription. It may end up being better off in the long run when you're able to keep 100% of your action, although that obviously depends how much work you put in.

---

I'm not going to say you should or shouldn't be staked. I've been staked before, I had some VERY good players coaching me, and although I didn't get the results I would've liked during the stake, it definitely improved my game significantly and gave me an opportunity that I wouldn't otherwise have had. If I could go back in time to the time when I had to decide whether I wanted to be staked or not, I would definitely take the same staking offer again.

However, be incredibly careful about who you get staked by. Do your research on the coaches and the sites you want to play on, and work out whether you're better off playing lower stakes in softer games on a site of your choice and keeping 100% on your roll, or playing on a big site with tougher opponents at a higher stake and only getting 50% with coaching thrown in.

Run the numbers on whether it's the best option for you £££ wise. Other ways of improving your game may work out better, and depending on your level, there may still be plenty of free resources out there to improve your game.

If you still feel that staking is right for you, then that's entirely up to you. Just make sure you do your due diligence first.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Poker Staking:

Thanks Ryan and Tony.  That was some great advice.   I am seeing a lot more advertising by companies offering staking.  However, the deals on offer may be complex and may come with strings/caveats attached as you mentioned Tony.  I do play on a few sites, and do consider myself a winning player, so as you mentioned if anything would be appropriate it would probably be an informal agreement with another poker player/friend. I am trying to ramp up the hours i dedicate to Poker (both studying & playing), my favourite games are MTT, but having said that i do also like cash & SNG. The most recent games you mentioned tikay were just purely all in sats.  I did manage to Cash in 3rd spot On a target tournament; the £55 sheriff a few days ago. I am pretty much an online poker player, so going to try and play more live events, and try and get some more poker pals lol....
Posted by ScotsLion

Morning,

You got some real good replies there, hope they helped.

You coming down to SPT Brighton? Be great to see you there.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Poker Staking:

+1 to Scotty and Madmonk. Was once staked for MTTs on 3 other sites. Got to around $13k MU or so at the worst point from memory. Really is hard to motivate yourself to grind and play your A-game when you look at the Big 55 lobby, for instance, and even winning one of the biggest nightly tournaments in online Poker probably won't net you a penny after MU. Really depends what you're in it for. I'd only recommend it for MTTs where you're getting a **** good coach at the same time. Things to consider are: - What can I play staked vs unstaked? Remember you need to double your EV to make the same amount once you give half away, so you need to make that from the extra tournaments you'll be able to play due to the stake. If you're already rolled to play the Big 55 every night, winning and you can handle the variance then obviously there's no use being staked, you'd be better off hiring a coach at an hourly rate. OTOH, if you're playing $5 SNGs and your backer only wants you to play the stakes you're already playing, then it's probably not worth it as you're giving half your profits away for very little. - As a general rule, I'd only take a staking deal that offers coaching, unless I was busto and really desperate. Reason being is you won't be able to just jump into games with 5x the BI, now that you're "rolled" for higher stakes by the backer, and crush the games. You'll need some kind of coaching to improve to the point where your hourly improves beyond what it was before in most cases - unless your plan is to use the coaching to improve for a few months, then get back to zero MU and quit the stake.  And frankly, not all the coaches in the Poker world are that good, plenty of them are stealing a living. I've seen some cases of people who mug people off, claiming to 'coach' the game who are barely capable of beating 20nl unless they're sitting on tables that have virtually no regs on them, while pocketing £30/hour from whoever is dumb enough to pay them to teach them to play ABC and bumhunt. I can think of several who I could advise better than, simply by providing my thought process on a hand posted in the Poker Clinic on here for free. In relation to staking, these same coaches pop up on time to time, generally on these sites that are spammed with affiliate rakeback deals because these parasites have gotta steal every penny they possibly can off the Poker industry and its players. If you find yourself on one of these sites that is offering staking to the masses, be VERY careful. Find out who you're being coached by - They might have a single decent name in their coaching ranks, but he has a limited amount of hours in a day, and he's probs gonna be wanting to play the game himself a lot of the time too.  Make sure you don't end up with coaching from some clown who can only barely beat 20nl by bumhunting, seat hopping to the left of the weakest player, buttoning people who try to start games, and other such tactics. They'll only be capable of telling you how to game select, so you learn absolutely nothing but you're giving away half your profits. Happens in SNG staking too, they'll probs just tell you "Get X piece of software and only play games with less than Y regs" or whatever, and they'll just point you to a push/fold chart or tell you to sign up to *insert paid coaching site here where they probably have an affiliate kickback if you go through their link*. Oh, and they've probs convinced you to sign up to site X through their affiliate link in order to be staked *cough*literallyeveryipokerskinever*cough* so they're pocketing like 5-10% of whatever you pay in rake on top of that FOREVER depending on the site. (Okay, that went off on a bit of a tangent, but the point is if you're being staked, GET A GOOD COACH, not a parasite. Regardless of whether you're more interested in improving your Poker ability or your bottom line, a good coach is necessary. Certainly what makes or breaks a staking deal for me more than anything else) - Oh, you can't leave a stake when you're in MU, and you'll often have contracts setting out terms such as this, your BI restrictions, and such. Leaving in MU or breaching those terms is a good way to get your name smeared over all the big Poker forums and for everyone in the Poker world to think you're a total d**k. I don't know how many of the contracts between backer and horse would actually stand up in court vs a decent lawyer if taken further, I'd be really curious to see what would happen. - Not only that, but your backer will almost certainly mandate tracking software for multiple reasons - Not least as an added layer of security to make sure you're not stealing their money, but also so you can send them a tournament HH from a database for them to review and help with coaching if they're a decent coach that you're working with 1:1 - so you are having to double your profits playing on sites that are in USD rather than GBP, with a tougher player pool (see below). - The sites that allow tracking software also have the toughest games, because they're all global sites. You've got solid Ukrainian regs even at fairly low stakes because they can make a living due to ridic low living costs in that part of the world. Obv plenty of other countries like that too, e.g. Russia, Romania, Belarus (Loads of Eastern European countries), Brazil, Mexico, think I've seen some people from India, Sri Lanka, even the Philippines I think. Low GDP country = Micro stakes grinders playing for a living. Maybe more true of cash but definitely applies to SNGs too, maybe not so much MTTs. Obviously that means if 10nl, or $3.50 SNGs are full of solid regs, then the next level up is going to be even more reggy, and even tougher opposition. - If staking is about getting a decent coach and improving, consider hiring a GOOD COACH  for an hourly rate, and/or getting a RIO/DC subscription. It may end up being better off in the long run when you're able to keep 100% of your action, although that obviously depends how much work you put in. --- I'm not going to say you should or shouldn't be staked. I've been staked before, I had some VERY good players coaching me, and although I didn't get the results I would've liked during the stake, it definitely improved my game significantly and gave me an opportunity that I wouldn't otherwise have had. If I could go back in time to the time when I had to decide whether I wanted to be staked or not, I would definitely take the same staking offer again. However, be incredibly careful about who you get staked by. Do your research on the coaches and the sites you want to play on, and work out whether you're better off playing lower stakes in softer games on a site of your choice and keeping 100% on your roll, or playing on a big site with tougher opponents at a higher stake and only getting 50% with coaching thrown in. Run the numbers on whether it's the best option for you £££ wise. Other ways of improving your game may work out better, and depending on your level, there may still be plenty of free resources out there to improve your game. If you still feel that staking is right for you, then that's entirely up to you. Just make sure you do your due diligence first.
Posted by EvilPingu

Longer than a Markycash reply, that. Good though, very good.

HaveaA1Day

I mentioned this in Jordz thread, if you do go the coaching route, make sure its in a good cfp program, with confirmed crushers, and your getting a good deal, I am getting 70/30 in my favour. I would firstly though do as Evil said and see what free resources are out there that can improve your game, I have been really impressed with upswings stuff, I have noticed on numerous occasions that different writers have mentioned stuff that has come up in coaching. If you do go the paid route and want to get a rio sub, try to get into a group to cut the cost, cause its not worth $100 a month.

ScotsLion

Thanks again Tikay.

SPT brighton is far for me, as im in Glasgow, but yes, im hoping to make it along....however i think i will

need a long sleep when i get there if im going to drive down LOL.....